View Poll Results: What should the next LS go after?
Voters: 158. You may not vote on this poll
Next Lexus LS (2018 model)
02-08-17, 07:55 AM
#1756
Seriously some of you are completely missing the point of what I was trying to say.
I was talking about turbo types and the ability to help and mitigate lag. Twin-scroll turbos are designed in way to do just that. These turbos are found in BMWs, Porsches, Audis, etc and they do help with lag and part of the reason certain manufacturers use them, albeit they are more expensive.
Traditional single-scroll turbos aren't as capable in this department and, we were merely speculating that this engine has or probably has two single-scroll turbos.
By inference, if you believe twin-scroll turbos are better at combating lag, then by simple transitive property, you can assume that this engine will have more lag, more so then if it had two twin-scroll turbos.
And since no one outside of Lexus has driven it yet, your assertations are as speculative as mine.
I was talking about turbo types and the ability to help and mitigate lag. Twin-scroll turbos are designed in way to do just that. These turbos are found in BMWs, Porsches, Audis, etc and they do help with lag and part of the reason certain manufacturers use them, albeit they are more expensive.
Traditional single-scroll turbos aren't as capable in this department and, we were merely speculating that this engine has or probably has two single-scroll turbos.
By inference, if you believe twin-scroll turbos are better at combating lag, then by simple transitive property, you can assume that this engine will have more lag, more so then if it had two twin-scroll turbos.
And since no one outside of Lexus has driven it yet, your assertations are as speculative as mine.
02-08-17, 08:02 AM
#1757
Lead Lap
Ok, so your sensitivity for that is very high. By lower RPM's you mean like under 2k rpm, right? I had an MKV GTI and man by 1.5k it was moving nicely, and by 2k, it was GONE. For me, it was more than adequate for that application.
I appreciate your being able to discern that type of lag, but I feel for most of the public, they wouldn't notice. Especially in a car like the LS and it's audience where smooth power delivery (they call that lag) is good.
My mother has an SC430, and I recall reading somewhere that that car was detuned at low RPM on purpose (tuned-in lag) due to complaints of too much power when the pedal was initially pressed? Not sure if that's true, but I will say, I can't drive that car. Might as well be a camry engine in it with how bad it responds.
Point is, in the LS and who it's for, a tiny amount of lag (if any) would barely be perceived by most if not appreciated as "smoother". I wouldn't worry at all in this case.
I appreciate your being able to discern that type of lag, but I feel for most of the public, they wouldn't notice. Especially in a car like the LS and it's audience where smooth power delivery (they call that lag) is good.
My mother has an SC430, and I recall reading somewhere that that car was detuned at low RPM on purpose (tuned-in lag) due to complaints of too much power when the pedal was initially pressed? Not sure if that's true, but I will say, I can't drive that car. Might as well be a camry engine in it with how bad it responds.
Point is, in the LS and who it's for, a tiny amount of lag (if any) would barely be perceived by most if not appreciated as "smoother". I wouldn't worry at all in this case.
I think a slow throttle response is often mis-characterized as turbo lag. You'll see people on this forum, with N/A engines talk about the slow throttle response on some cars, especially in the RX forum. On a N/A engine, people say "the throttle is laggy" but if the car has a turbo, they'll say "I feel the turbo lag".
Yes, I do believe some turbos have some lag, most often noticeable in say, a 5mph to 60mph test (rather than 0-60), but the manufacturers have done a tremendous job in greatly reducing that lag to the point that I think most people don't notice.
FWIW and full disclaimer, I've driven but never owned a turbocharged car. I have, however, had a supercharged car. My thoughts above could be all wrong.
Yes, I do believe some turbos have some lag, most often noticeable in say, a 5mph to 60mph test (rather than 0-60), but the manufacturers have done a tremendous job in greatly reducing that lag to the point that I think most people don't notice.
FWIW and full disclaimer, I've driven but never owned a turbocharged car. I have, however, had a supercharged car. My thoughts above could be all wrong.
02-08-17, 08:12 AM
#1758
Lexus Test Driver
What does me not liking it doesn't have a V8 have anything to do with turbo types and lag?
It's a legitimate question and declaration. Search around any forum about modern turbo cars, Audi, BMW, etc., and you will find posts about turbo lag, even with twin scroll turbos. What makes this different?
If you want to believe I'm bashing something, go ahead. I'm not. I just find it funny you jump to that conclusion. So be it.
It's a legitimate question and declaration. Search around any forum about modern turbo cars, Audi, BMW, etc., and you will find posts about turbo lag, even with twin scroll turbos. What makes this different?
If you want to believe I'm bashing something, go ahead. I'm not. I just find it funny you jump to that conclusion. So be it.
02-08-17, 08:13 AM
#1759
Lexus Fanatic
I have driven those cars, and I felt no discernible turbo lag. So why would I assume this engine in the LS500 would have "tons of turbo lag?" I would only do that if I didn't have the experience I have or if I was being unreasonably negative.
02-08-17, 08:34 AM
#1761
What does me not liking it doesn't have a V8 have anything to do with turbo types and lag?
It's a legitimate question and declaration. Search around any forum about modern turbo cars, Audi, BMW, etc., and you will find posts about turbo lag, even with twin scroll turbos. What makes this different?
If you want to believe I'm bashing something, go ahead. I'm not. I just find it funny you jump to that conclusion. So be it.
It's a legitimate question and declaration. Search around any forum about modern turbo cars, Audi, BMW, etc., and you will find posts about turbo lag, even with twin scroll turbos. What makes this different?
If you want to believe I'm bashing something, go ahead. I'm not. I just find it funny you jump to that conclusion. So be it.
I believe you are bashing simply because it's not a 5.0 V8.
02-08-17, 10:48 AM
#1762
Lexus Test Driver
Well you are free to believe whatever you want to believe.
But, what I take offense to is that my declaration that a turbo engine might have lag is based on whatever.
Do not, I repeat, do not accuse me of anything. I take offense to that from you and others.
Don't automatically ASSUME my dislike of no V8 has ANYTHING to do with discussing lag in turbo engines.
And don't accuse me again, you and others.
But, what I take offense to is that my declaration that a turbo engine might have lag is based on whatever.
Do not, I repeat, do not accuse me of anything. I take offense to that from you and others.
Don't automatically ASSUME my dislike of no V8 has ANYTHING to do with discussing lag in turbo engines.
And don't accuse me again, you and others.
02-08-17, 10:54 AM
#1763
Lexus Fanatic
Why you're so worked up about this I simply do not understand.
For the record, you did not say "it might have lag", this is what you said specifically:
That is not the same as saying "it might have lag", its a declarative negative statement, it "probably" will, and "lots" of lag. Like we've said before if you would go drive some of these similar cars from other manufacturers that empty this type of TT V6 engine (and we've told you which cars specifically to try) you would see as we have that turbo lag isn't an issue, and theres no reason to assume that Lexus won't be able to address lag in the same way those manufacturers have.
IMHO, the LS460 has a fair amount of throttle lag when you get on it hard from a stop or a rolling start, which is a characteristic of Toyota electronic throttles that dates back to 1998. If you get on one of these cars hard, you might feel some sort of lag if you're looking for it, but in normal driving I'm willing to bet you won't feel anything, as I didn't when I drove those other vehicles. Honestly, hard to feel or tell either wasn't a V8. The LS460 lacks any V8 rumble or sound anyways.
For the record, you did not say "it might have lag", this is what you said specifically:
Originally Posted by Rhambler
The LS 500 will probably have lots of lag. No amount of gearing or anything else will help much imo.
IMHO, the LS460 has a fair amount of throttle lag when you get on it hard from a stop or a rolling start, which is a characteristic of Toyota electronic throttles that dates back to 1998. If you get on one of these cars hard, you might feel some sort of lag if you're looking for it, but in normal driving I'm willing to bet you won't feel anything, as I didn't when I drove those other vehicles. Honestly, hard to feel or tell either wasn't a V8. The LS460 lacks any V8 rumble or sound anyways.
Last edited by SW17LS; 02-08-17 at 10:59 AM.
02-08-17, 10:56 AM
#1765
Well you are free to believe whatever you want to believe.
But, what I take offense to is that my declaration that a turbo engine might have lag is based on whatever.
Do not, I repeat, do not accuse me of anything. I take offense to that from you and others.
Don't automatically ASSUME my dislike of no V8 has ANYTHING to do with discussing lag in turbo engines.
And don't accuse me again, you and others.
But, what I take offense to is that my declaration that a turbo engine might have lag is based on whatever.
Do not, I repeat, do not accuse me of anything. I take offense to that from you and others.
Don't automatically ASSUME my dislike of no V8 has ANYTHING to do with discussing lag in turbo engines.
And don't accuse me again, you and others.
Last I checked Freedom of Speech was still legal.
02-08-17, 11:02 AM
#1766
Lexus Fanatic
I understand what "probably" means, I'm just saying that you are being unreasonably negative about the characteristics of these engines, especially when you haven't driven a similar vehicle with a similar type engine as I have. There is no unbiased reason to say "the engine probably will have lots of lag" Take an afternoon and go drive those two cars, you'll see. The TT V6 in the LS500 is going to be fine, smooth and quiet. Would I prefer a V8? Sure...although honestly if I got a G90, I don't know that I would upgrade to the V8 because the TT V6 I drove felt great. Its only $1,500 so maybe I would but would I have paid $4k to replace the TT V6 in that car with a V8? No.
If I got a 7 Series I wouldn't even consider a 750 over a 740, too much more money.
If I got a 7 Series I wouldn't even consider a 750 over a 740, too much more money.
02-08-17, 11:07 AM
#1767
Lexus Test Driver
Besides how do you know it won't have lag? You don't. I'm making suppositions based on some facts, notably turbo types, etc. You're assuming it won't based on nothing.
02-08-17, 11:20 AM
#1768
Lexus Test Driver
Listen we can argue all day about this. But I'm entitled to my thoughts and opinions. I'm sorry if it gets you and others all riled up enough to actually throw out accusations. It's actually kind of funny, but I assure you that wasn't my intention.
02-08-17, 11:26 AM
#1769
Lexus Fanatic
How is having driven very similar cars with similar power plants and basing my expectation on that "nothing". Its actually quite "something" lol.
Go drive the cars...not sure why you wouldn't want to do that. Nobody's "throwing up accusations" lol, lighten up.
02-08-17, 11:27 AM
#1770
Of course you are entitled, you state your thoughts and opinions based on what you read on forums. I state mine based on actually driving various cars, NA V8, twin turbo V6's and single turbo inline 6. If for whatever reason the LS500 had a single turbo then yes it would be very laggy. When you state it will probably be laggy and no amount of gearing will help and suggest laws of physics I jumped in to question that. Tell me which gearing is better for quick acceleration 3.76 or 3.13?