.

Depends on what is considered "fleet" sales. The former mid-size Taurus models of the 80s/90s (not the newer full-size ones of the last 5-10 years) were sold to rental-car firms across the country in barge bulk-orders.......somewhat lesser-so for government agencies, which bought the Flexible-Fuel Taurus models. That wasn't the case with the DTS, where most of them went to private owners, and the Town Car, which was admittedly very popular with the limo/executive car business, but where the limo business simply doesn't have the continuous huge demand for cars that a large rental company like Hertz or Avis does.

No. what I was saying (and I believe I made it clear) was that one usually cannot (or does not) buy both a new XTS/MKS or used DTS/TC at the same time. They choose one or the other. Each used one means one less new one out the door.

Both companies, BTW, have realized their error, BTW, and are now working on more-credible large flagship sedans, though Cadillac seems to be further along on their project than Lincoln, whose details are still unclear.

 

Do you have a source for any of this or are you just making this up?

Yet as I have demonstrated above Lincoln and Cadillac are still able to sell the MKS and XTS at a rate that is stronger than the Town Car or DTS in the last few years of their lives. So...my question to you is how would Lincoln or Cadillac have benefitted from just keeping the TC and DTS? Are you saying that all of a sudden for the TC a 13 year long year over year sales slide would have just ended with the 2012 TC? With Cadillac...the XTS doubled in sales from 2012 to 2013 and sales in 2013 were the strongest for Cadillac in that segment since 2007! And according to your argument they are doing these figures with no returning TC or DTS customers!

1. Cadillac said when the XTS was released that it was not to be their flagship.
2. Looking at the sales data I have presented, which is fact, how can you say that either company made an error cancelling these models? Other than the "mmarshall likes big floaty sedans" argument? Sales of both models had been dropping for years...and both companies have replaced these models with cars that sell better than the cars you're saying should still be on the road. How thats "an error" is beyond me.

The buying public didn't want these cars anymore. The fact that they couldn't sell 10k TC's at the end...even with livery companies buying all the ones they could find is PROOF of that.

 

It's been a while since the DTS/Town car discussion has come up. Both cars are dead and gone, and the auto industry has survived and flourished, but their memory lingers on. Both had their day but time and tastes have moved on.

 

Well, I wasn't the first one to bring it up in this specific thread....I replied to prior posts.

This year at the D.C. auto show, the Lincoln reps told me that this is, hands-down, the most common complaint they get at major shows. Almost nobody is satisfied with the MKS, despite its drivetrain advancements over the Town Car, and gripe about the Town Car's loss.

I myself, BTW, get my share of complaints from those who want big traditional Buicks, Cadillacs, and Lincolns, and can no longer get them new.

You say the auto industry has flourished without them. Lincoln sure hasn't....those who say it has are simply wishful thinking. If it wasn't for the excellent new MKC small SUV (arguably their first decent new product in years), and the fact that Ford, having dumped all of their other upmarket divisions, has no other premium-nameplate, Lincoln probably would have folded after the TC's demise. But Ford has no choice now but to keep the division.

But I agree, we're getting little off topic. We were on Cadillac's latest product-naming structure...not Lincoln's

 

Where exactly, are these mysterious oldsters (like me) prowling used car lots looking for that used TC or DTS? Looking around at my peers, friends, former co-workers, neighbors etc. seems like they've moved on to Lacrosse, Verano, Avalon, ES, Taurus etc. as well as the aforementioned MKS and XTS. There are options out there for former DTS and TC owners. The facts show sales on them were sliding for years.

 

Well, in the morning, they are in the rec-center pool or treadmill doing the daily exercise with me....and often talking about cars and/or asking me for advice. Some of them, because of economic conditions, are also choosing to keep their old ones and put money into them for repairs rather than pay more and trade up to a newer, less-comfortable replacement.

The Verano generally sells to a slightly younger (non-senior) group of buyers. The Avalon still sells mostly to older folks, but some of them are not satisfied with the new stiffer underpinnings....ditto for the ES, but to a slightly lesser extent. The Lacrosse seems to satisfy some former Lucerne/Park Avenue/LeSabre owners.......not with others. The newest version of the Taurus doesn't seem to be selling well, period......that was discussed earlier in the thread.

Let's get back on topic, though.....Cadillac names.

 

1. The people staffing the booths at the DC Auto Show are not manufacturer reps. They are either dealer personnel or they are private show staff hired by the Metropolitan Dealers Association. The DC show is not a tier one manufacturer show. My feeling is they placate you.

2. Look at the sales figures. Where were all these people in the last few years of the TC's life? Who are the people buying the MKS in the same or better numbers than the TC was selling in the last few years of its life?

You obviously have no answers for these questions.

Again, look at the sales figures. Lincoln is not struggling because they did away with the Town Car. The MKS is selling as well or better. Cadillac is doing very well without the DTS and also has a model that is selling better than it did.

Personally I think Ford should just fold Lincoln...but the reason for that is not them not having the Town Car which couldn't even muster 10k sales its last year despite strong livery and fleet sales.

Again....look at the numbers not your own bias

 

I can usually tell the local salespeople from low-level factory-reps at the show, though it's true that the manufacturers usually don't send high-level reps to that show.

The answer is obvious...it's not a matter of me, or you, or anyone else. The MKS simply is not selling well.

And I'm done with this line of discussion. As far as I'm concerned, we're too far off the thread-topic.

 

For now??

 

They don't send ~any~ reps. The show is 100% put on by the WANADA, the Washington Area New Automobile Dealers Association. Manufacturers are not involved ~at all~.

But its selling as well or better than the TC was, so logically your statement also needs to be that the Town Car was simply not selling well...hence why it was discontinued. How can Lincoln be damaged by the fact that they discontinued a car that by your assertion was not selling well?

Until the next time someone says the word "Lincoln" or "Cadillac"

 

Wrong. I didn't bring it up first in this threat.

Have a nice day.

 

Moving on, how do you all feel about a sub-SRX CUV from Cadillac to compete with the Lincoln MKC and upcoming Lexus NX? Supposedly, two new SUVs are coming from Cadillac, one above and one below the SRX. although they don't seem to have much if anything yet on their website about it. I'm afraid that if they did do an SUV in this class, it would (likely) be on the Trax/Encore/Mokka platform, which IMO is not very impressive.

 

yes--those are the issues Caddy is facing. How does changing to new confusing naming SOLVE this problem? How does making all the cars named "CT__" make the people view Cadillac as MB, Lexus and Audi?

 

but--that's why branding is so important. It's an uphill battle to have to educate the public about a "new" name/brand, whether it's all new or just a renaming. Conversely, loyalists looking for the new version of their car may get turned off when they think it was "discontinued", even though it was only a name change. Why kill the name recognition ATS & CTS have gained???

 

i don't think escalade name will survive in time. i have no problem at all with the switch to CT and XT. again, this is a long term decision, and i think they were struggling with identities of ats, cts, xts, etc., although mb of course does well with C, E, S, etc. but CT / XT is simpler, and easier.

this will all be forgotten in 10 years. again, this is a long term deal. the interim confusion will mainly be on the internetz boards.