Cadillac to receive new naming structure.
10-04-14, 02:50 PM
#107
Moderator
Twenty five years ago Lexus was a Lexus which started with the LS 400 and ES 250. Today Lexus is still Lexus and has the LS 460/600h L, ES 300h/350 and has expanded their model line-up...
Last edited by Trexus; 10-04-14 at 02:55 PM.
10-04-14, 02:50 PM
#108
Lexus Fanatic
The problem is that people are seeing the individual car/model first and then the brand second. When buyers look at Mercedes/BMW/Audi and for the most part Lexus, these buyers just see the brand first and then then they figure out what line they can afford. Most people don't care what car they are getting when they get a Mercedes, they just know they have a Mercedes. Its not the same with Cadillac
10-04-14, 03:55 PM
#109
Lexus Fanatic
I wouldn't bet on it. Too much is at stake with the "Cadillac" name, which was named after the French Explorer who founded the settlement of Detroit in 1701. Same with Lincoln, which is named for our second-most-famous President.
10-04-14, 05:34 PM
#110
Lexus Champion
The problem is that people are seeing the individual car/model first and then the brand second. When buyers look at Mercedes/BMW/Audi and for the most part Lexus, these buyers just see the brand first and then then they figure out what line they can afford. Most people don't care what car they are getting when they get a Mercedes, they just know they have a Mercedes. Its not the same with Cadillac
There is no way, at this point, that MB, BMW or Audi would throw their model naming out the window assuming that their customers are lemmings, that would buy anything with their name on it.
Inconsistency on Caddy's part is not going to help them build up loyal customers or brand loyalty or recognition.
10-04-14, 06:49 PM
#111
Lexus Fanatic
This guy and the naming reminds me of that scene in the Brady Bunch movie where Mike Brady presents all these building models for different projects and they all look like his house LOL
Last edited by SW17LS; 10-04-14 at 06:59 PM.
10-04-14, 09:46 PM
#112
Lexus Fanatic
I do not agree that MB loyal customers "don't car" what they are getting. MB has spent years building up a brand name and reputation--and with that, they have a loyal customer base. They would not dare mess around with the "S Class" name. I'm sure that MB did not lightly consider, years ago, when they changed the naming convention from "500SEL" to "S500"; but they knew that they had enough brand good will to do it. I'll bet that BMW thought long and hard about moving 3-Series coupes to a 4-Series name. But 40 years of a reputation built around that model allowed them to do it.
There is no way, at this point, that MB, BMW or Audi would throw their model naming out the window assuming that their customers are lemmings, that would buy anything with their name on it.
Inconsistency on Caddy's part is not going to help them build up loyal customers or brand loyalty or recognition.
There is no way, at this point, that MB, BMW or Audi would throw their model naming out the window assuming that their customers are lemmings, that would buy anything with their name on it.
Inconsistency on Caddy's part is not going to help them build up loyal customers or brand loyalty or recognition.
10-04-14, 11:03 PM
#113
Pretty much everybody on that forum hates the XTS, even guys who own/like the N* Deville, Seville and DTS. The FWD thing doesn't bother me so much, its the V6 part that kills me. Big isolated floaty car=V8, no exceptions.
As for the CT6 name, everybody on that board is hyped up about finally having a credible big sedan, since its what Cadillac has been known for. Then you slap the lame CT6 name on it, it should have a name as good as the car IMO. I know it won't be a dud, GM has been putting out some great product the last 3-4 years.
10-05-14, 03:27 AM
#114
Lexus Fanatic
I'm on Cadillac forums, and I've owned two of the old Cadillac boats. And not this FWD Northstar Deville nonsense, I had a 1995 Fleetwood and a 1991 Brougham D'Elegance. There is a cult following among the younger(under 40 crowd) with these big Caddys and Lincolns.
Pretty much everybody on that forum hates the XTS, even guys who own/like the N* Deville, Seville and DTS. The FWD thing doesn't bother me so much, its the V6 part that kills me. Big isolated floaty car=V8, no exceptions.
As for the CT6 name, everybody on that board is hyped up about finally having a credible big sedan, since its what Cadillac has been known for. Then you slap the lame CT6 name on it, it should have a name as good as the car IMO. I know it won't be a dud, GM has been putting out some great product the last 3-4 years.
Pretty much everybody on that forum hates the XTS, even guys who own/like the N* Deville, Seville and DTS. The FWD thing doesn't bother me so much, its the V6 part that kills me. Big isolated floaty car=V8, no exceptions.
As for the CT6 name, everybody on that board is hyped up about finally having a credible big sedan, since its what Cadillac has been known for. Then you slap the lame CT6 name on it, it should have a name as good as the car IMO. I know it won't be a dud, GM has been putting out some great product the last 3-4 years.
You've outlined some of the things that Cadillac's management itself can't seem to figure out any more.
10-05-14, 03:43 AM
#115
Without a doubt, Cadillac produced IMO THE WORST cars out of any General Motors division in the 1980's. This is in terms of styling, driving dynamics, and mainly reliability. It was just really dark, horrid times for Cadillac.
I will take exception to the 86-89 Brougham, which was still an old boat carryover from the 70's with a finally reliable but slow Oldsmobile engine under the hood.
Anyways, baby boomers stayed clear of Cadillac in the 1980's, most people who bought them back then were old pensioners from the greatest generation. Things improved massively in the 90's in terms of the styling and driving dynamics of the cars(reliability still sucked on any car with the N* engine, which was most of them). Still the baby boomers stayed away in droves.
I still think in that very affluent 45 to 65 crowd we have today, a Cadillac is something their old man drove, that they wouldn't be caught dead in. Despite today's Cadillac being nothing like the cars of old.
10-05-14, 08:39 AM
#116
Lexus Fanatic
The only way to get away from that stigma is to abandon that market, and build and market cars that appeal to the target they are trying to get at...and let time do the rest.
Thats not to say Cadillac doesn't need a proper RWD flagship, they do and they will have one...but it won't at all be a vehicle like the Fleetwood.
Originally Posted by mmarshall
Great points, Aron. You've outlined some of the things that Cadillac's management itself can't seem to figure out any more.
The buyer that they need is 35-55, professional, income $150k+ in the lower ages, with the capacity to grow to $250-300k+ as the customer ages. These are the people that can buy $40k-$100k cars. These are not the people that are in the "cult following" Aron is talking about. For example...people on that forum "hate the XTS", yet as I demonstrated the other day the XTS handily outsells the previous DTS. If they still own a Northstar Seville or Deville, they aren't a buyer for a $50-70k XTS and almost certainly never will be. Its the same way for Lexus, look in the LS400 forum...people buying and enjoying those cars today are likely never going to be in a position to purchase a new LS for $80k+. So really...what they like or want is meaningless to Lexus as a business.
Remember, an income of $250,000 puts the person in the top 2% of all earners in the country. We loose sight of that in our area where that income is not uncommon. In reality...its pretty uncommon.
Last edited by SW17LS; 10-05-14 at 08:43 AM.
10-05-14, 09:11 AM
#117
Lexus Fanatic
I'm on Cadillac forums, and I've owned two of the old Cadillac boats. And not this FWD Northstar Deville nonsense, I had a 1995 Fleetwood and a 1991 Brougham D'Elegance. There is a cult following among the younger(under 40 crowd) with these big Caddys and Lincolns.
Pretty much everybody on that forum hates the XTS, even guys who own/like the N* Deville, Seville and DTS. The FWD thing doesn't bother me so much, its the V6 part that kills me. Big isolated floaty car=V8, no exceptions.
As for the CT6 name, everybody on that board is hyped up about finally having a credible big sedan, since its what Cadillac has been known for. Then you slap the lame CT6 name on it, it should have a name as good as the car IMO. I know it won't be a dud, GM has been putting out some great product the last 3-4 years.
Pretty much everybody on that forum hates the XTS, even guys who own/like the N* Deville, Seville and DTS. The FWD thing doesn't bother me so much, its the V6 part that kills me. Big isolated floaty car=V8, no exceptions.
As for the CT6 name, everybody on that board is hyped up about finally having a credible big sedan, since its what Cadillac has been known for. Then you slap the lame CT6 name on it, it should have a name as good as the car IMO. I know it won't be a dud, GM has been putting out some great product the last 3-4 years.
10-05-14, 03:20 PM
#118
This is true...but my question would be how would continuing to sell the same car that their old man did indeed drive (i.e. a car like the DTS or Fleetwood) help them get away from that stigma?
The only way to get away from that stigma is to abandon that market, and build and market cars that appeal to the target they are trying to get at...and let time do the rest.
Thats not to say Cadillac doesn't need a proper RWD flagship, they do and they will have one...but it won't at all be a vehicle like the Fleetwood.
What you miss is that group of people, the "cult following" can't afford new Cadiillacs. Yeah theres a cult following for big bodied American cars, but they are 20 year old big bodied American cars that can be had for a few thousand bucks. Thats not a base of buyers that Cadillac can build a business around.
The buyer that they need is 35-55, professional, income $150k+ in the lower ages, with the capacity to grow to $250-300k+ as the customer ages. These are the people that can buy $40k-$100k cars. These are not the people that are in the "cult following" Aron is talking about. For example...people on that forum "hate the XTS", yet as I demonstrated the other day the XTS handily outsells the previous DTS. If they still own a Northstar Seville or Deville, they aren't a buyer for a $50-70k XTS and almost certainly never will be. Its the same way for Lexus, look in the LS400 forum...people buying and enjoying those cars today are likely never going to be in a position to purchase a new LS for $80k+. So really...what they like or want is meaningless to Lexus as a business.
Remember, an income of $250,000 puts the person in the top 2% of all earners in the country. We loose sight of that in our area where that income is not uncommon. In reality...its pretty uncommon.
The only way to get away from that stigma is to abandon that market, and build and market cars that appeal to the target they are trying to get at...and let time do the rest.
Thats not to say Cadillac doesn't need a proper RWD flagship, they do and they will have one...but it won't at all be a vehicle like the Fleetwood.
What you miss is that group of people, the "cult following" can't afford new Cadiillacs. Yeah theres a cult following for big bodied American cars, but they are 20 year old big bodied American cars that can be had for a few thousand bucks. Thats not a base of buyers that Cadillac can build a business around.
The buyer that they need is 35-55, professional, income $150k+ in the lower ages, with the capacity to grow to $250-300k+ as the customer ages. These are the people that can buy $40k-$100k cars. These are not the people that are in the "cult following" Aron is talking about. For example...people on that forum "hate the XTS", yet as I demonstrated the other day the XTS handily outsells the previous DTS. If they still own a Northstar Seville or Deville, they aren't a buyer for a $50-70k XTS and almost certainly never will be. Its the same way for Lexus, look in the LS400 forum...people buying and enjoying those cars today are likely never going to be in a position to purchase a new LS for $80k+. So really...what they like or want is meaningless to Lexus as a business.
Remember, an income of $250,000 puts the person in the top 2% of all earners in the country. We loose sight of that in our area where that income is not uncommon. In reality...its pretty uncommon.
Great points. Cars like the Fleetwood are dinosaurs and should live in the past. Reason I bought them is that they were new enough to be reliable, but were total throwbacks to the 1970's era Cadillac.
I'm just excited that Cadillac is going to have a new, BIG, sophisticated sedan that's interesting to look at. Now I just hope that the new CT6 is more Mercedes S-class than Maserati Quatropotte. I love both of those cars, but IMO Cadillac should get back to their roots with this new big car, IE a world beater luxury car, not a world beater sports sedan. Leave that mantle to the CTS and ATS.
10-05-14, 04:05 PM
#119
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by Aron
Cars like the Fleetwood are dinosaurs and should live in the past. Reason I bought them is that they were new enough to be reliable, but were total throwbacks to the 1970's era Cadillac.
I''m just excited that Cadillac is going to have a new, BIG, sophisticated sedan that's interesting to look at. Now I just hope that the new CT6 is more Mercedes S-class than Maserati Quatropotte. I love both of those cars, but IMO Cadillac should get back to their roots with this new big car, IE a world beater luxury car, not a world beater sports sedan. Leave that mantle to the CTS and ATS.
Last edited by mmarshall; 10-05-14 at 04:08 PM.
10-10-14, 09:12 PM
#120
Cadillac confirms CT8/CT9 flagship, ELR successor
Cadillac has certainly been a hot topic as of late, what with Johan de Nysschen now running the joint, moving its headquarters to New York, and overhauling the company's naming structure (only to later publicly defend all of these drastic decisions). Now, looking ahead, de Nysschen is already revealing some details about what's in store for the future, including a raft of new products that include a large, long-wheelbase Mercedes-Benz S-Class rival positioned above the recently announced CT6, along with a successor to the slow-selling ELR coupe.
In an interview with Reuters, de Nysschen says his company has "just signed off on" a new flagship tipped to be called CT8 or CT9. It will compete with the long-wheelbase versions of the Mercedes-Benz S-Class and BMW 7 Series, and should come to market by the end of this decade.
Among other news, the South African executive said a followup to the ELR plug-in hybrid is in development, though it may not be a two-door coupe like the current car. That's not necessarily a bad thing, since the ELR has garnered nothing but slow sales and poor reviews since its launch.
The Reuters interview also touches on some topics that we've heard about before, including the potential of a plug-in hybrid variant of the forthcoming CT6, and new crossovers to slot above and below the SRX in the brand's model line.
In an interview with Reuters, de Nysschen says his company has "just signed off on" a new flagship tipped to be called CT8 or CT9. It will compete with the long-wheelbase versions of the Mercedes-Benz S-Class and BMW 7 Series, and should come to market by the end of this decade.
Among other news, the South African executive said a followup to the ELR plug-in hybrid is in development, though it may not be a two-door coupe like the current car. That's not necessarily a bad thing, since the ELR has garnered nothing but slow sales and poor reviews since its launch.
The Reuters interview also touches on some topics that we've heard about before, including the potential of a plug-in hybrid variant of the forthcoming CT6, and new crossovers to slot above and below the SRX in the brand's model line.
