JDR76

What gage is the sheet metal? How does that compare to other vehicles in the class, like the CR-V? What gage is the CR-V? Do you have an actual measurement and source?

mmarshall

Well, no, I don't actually measure it with a micrometer, but I was mostly referring to how easy it is to buckle and/or push in with one hand or finger. The RAV-4 isn't alone in that, either. The sheet metal in many of today's vehicles is much more easily-buckled than in the past. In general, I have watched a steady decrease over the years in the amount of hand or finger-pressure it takes to push in or buckle the typical sheet-metal panel on auto-bodies. That is done, of course, for two reasons...cost and weight.

JDR76

You must have strong fingers. I tried your test on the RAV4 and couldn't get it to "buckle" or "push in'. Just a small amount of flex, as with all cars.

mmarshall

It's usually easier to push it in at the center of a panel, rather than along a seam or twist-line, which adds strength. But, you're right......I'm a big boy physically, and, even at my age, I have a lot of strength in my hands....though I wish both of my knees could still say the same LOL.

LexBob2

No surprise, but this trend will continue and for me isn't really a big deal. My last couple of cars have had aluminum hoods and one also had an aluminum tailgate. I can see the hoods flutter a bit when the blowers in the touchless car wash blow on them. Again not a big deal, I know it's aluminum and to be expected.

mmarshall

Automotive-grade sheet-aluminum, though (I'm not talking about beer-cans here), even with its lighter weight, is more resistant to buckles, bending, and dings than steel. For proof, look at vehicles with aluminum hoods that are regularly parked under nut-shedding trees, hailstorms, and other hazards that can ding up sheet-metal. You will often notice fewer dings (or no dings) on the hood, where dings will be present on the steel roof and trunk-lid.

Aron9000

Are you really regularly riding 3 people in the back seat of a sedan all the time??? About the only type of sedan where that doesn't suck is in a big old Town Car or Fleetwood Brougham, and they don't make those anymore. If you're doing that all the time, I'd quit torturing your back seat people and buy a 3 row SUV. People can not listen all they want, I've done a lot of seat time in both the current Camry and current Rav4, for 4 people I personally think the Rav4 is a better road trip vehicle. There is a reason why sales of the Camry are down and sales of the Rav4 are up, the Rav4 is a much more efficient use of space than a Camry.

There isn't anything that fancy about the interior materials in the Camry or the Rav4, I'd say its kind of a wash as to which is nicer. I will say that on my friend's and family's Rav4 and Camry, nothing on the interior has broke and they don't rattle(Rav4 has 40 or 50kish miles on it, the Camry has like 120 or 130k on it I think) Interior fit and finish, that's something Honda, Mazda, Hyundia, and Kia do a better job on, sometimes depending on the model a MUCH better job than Toyota.

LexBob2

We need to get used to lighter weight materials being used throughout new vehicles.

Aron9000

Yeah I know this fuel efficiency push has kind of made a lot of newer cars feel like a 1990's Civic in terms of thin sheetmetal/tin can syndrome. It will be interesting to see if more composites like carbon fiber ever work their way down into your $20-30k family sedan, I know aluminum has, along with thinner gauges of sheet metal.

peteharvey

Midsize sedan Camry has much longer wheelbase than compact SUV RAV4.
This would normally cause flexing.
Toyota must overcome the natural flexing with thicker gauge metal, or taller box sections.
That's why a compact SUV RAV4 with larger rolling diameter tires for a higher ground clearance, and even 4WD will weigh only about as much as a midsize Camry sedan with smaller rolling diameter tires/wheels and front wheel drive FWD.
Notice the difference in torsional rigidity, bending stiffness and refinement between RAV4 and Camry when we drive???
Refinement of compact sedan Corolla and compact SUV RAV4 is poor.
Thus, it is only an educated guess that the bigger Camry platform uses thicker gauge metal.

mmarshall

A number of factors, not just metal-gauge, are involved in the lateral and torsional bending/stiffness of automotive vehicle platforms.....alloys, metallurgy, type of welds, number of cross-braces, etc...... That is why auto companies hire engineers with advanced degrees...designing vehicles can be a complex business.

Aron9000

If you do a quick google search, you'll see the Rav4 is about 200 to 400lbs more than a Camry, depending on engine options and if the Rav4 is AWD. As far as refinement goes, the Rav4 is quieter and rides nicer than the Camry. Of course cars I have experience with, the Camry is the SE V6 with 18" low profile tires vs the base Rav4 with 16" or 17" tires with much bigger sidewalls, but I still think there is more sound deadening in the Rav4. Toyota really cheaped out on some aspects of the current gen Camry(sound deadening being one). Those low profile tires make a lot of racket, they ride pretty good, but mainly you hear the whack of the bumps more than you feel them.

mmarshall

I'm not opposed to that, if and when it makes sense....like with gas mileage and vehicle performance. But there is also a down side to that. All else equal (which, of course, it rarely is LOL), lighter vehicles tend to ride more stiffly over bumps, have less crash-resistence in a collision with a heavier vehicle, and, in some cases, feel like tin cans. Again all else equal, the more weight you have on top of the suspension, and the less weight you have underneath the suspension and in the suspension itself (in engineering terms, that is called "unsprung weight")....the smoother the vehicle will ride, since the suspension, because of the weight resistance, will not be able to transfer as much shock to the car's frame and inside the cabin. That's one reason why big, heavy, softly-spring American luxury cars used to have such a nice ride.....and lousy handling.

peteharvey

I've test driven all four RAV4, Camry, CR-V & Accord, and I find that Accord & Camry sedans are smoothest & most refined.

The two compact SUV's, esp RAV4 are noisier & pitch, and have a much bobbier ride thanks to a higher seating position on a shorter wheelbase, plus the heavier unsprung mass of the larger rolling diameter tires & wheels.

Sulu

This is getting ridiculous. Now I am being asked to justify my purchase of a Lexus ESh over a Toyota RAV4? I refused to do that even when my mother asked.

Suffice it to say that I looked at both the RAV4 and the ES, and the ES, with the wider rear seat, suits my needs much better than the RAV4. Case closed.