TangoRed

Well actually you could get close...you'll note for most of the models the rating only went down like 2mpg.

LeX2K

What are you saying here exactly? If Hyundai/Kia has to raise prices because of self inflicted wounds and be less competitive so what? That's exactly what should happen in the free market, people that were lied to can buy from an auto maker that doesn't put out blatant (and admitted) false advertising.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Even if they only went down by 2 that could be 5-9% perhaps which is significant and regardless, they overstated it and admitted to that, and made a lot of sales because of those bogus numbers.


But didn't Toyota pay a BILLION for the 'unintended acceleration nonesense?

mmarshall

While I agree that the way Toyota was treated and harassed by Congress and the NHTSA was probably excessive and uncalled for, it's also fair to say that no one died because his or her Kia didn't get exactly the same gas mileage printed on the window-sticker. Now, of course, that doesn't prove that the reason people died in those Toyota/Lexus crashes was because of the cars themselves...human error or ignorance was obviously a strong possibility. But, even if the 1B judgement wasn't justified or applicable at that time (it probably wasn't), Toyota/Lexus was cost-cuting in other ways on the materials they used on their cars, while Hyundai/Kia were doing just the opposite.

LeX2K

Now you're trying way way too hard to try and defend Hyundai. Poor company, they have to play the market fairly I hope they don't go bankrupt. BTW for all the "cost cutting" you claim in happening somehow Toyota is still the most reliable brand and Hyundai is way down on the list.

mmarshall

Overall, yes, I agree....I'm not saying that Toyotas aren't reliable. But, the point I was tying to make is that their overall pattern lately of using lighter, thinner cheaper materials inside and for the bodywork appears to be the opposite of Hyundai. I don't think we will see either corporation, though, go bankrupt....both are simply in too strong a sales-position for that.

spwolf

what are you talking about?

I would expect you to know better about why exactly was Toyota punished for - for late pedal stuck recall that nobody ever died from.

As to cost-cutting in Toyota/Lexus vs Hyundai, obviously Hyundai went down a lot in realibility ratings in past years, while Toyota went up and Lexus is cemented alone on the top.

So, really have no idea where you got any of your info but it is factually wrong - all of it.

LeX2K

Do you have even a shred of proof to back this up? Also your sarcasm detector is horribly broken.

mmarshall

I didn't say anything that was different. Human error was also probably a factor on the stuck pedals, particularly when owners were using two or more floor mats on top of each other.

Apples and oranges. We're talking about two different things. Cheap chintzy interior materials and body sheet metal don't necessarily make for an unreliable car.....I said that in a previous post.. But it can, and sometimes does, make for a much less pleasant car to live with, and with some parts more easily damaged.

Not true. If you didn't understand or grasp what I was saying, all you would have had to do is stop and ask instead of jumping to premature conclusions and assuming that what I was posting was nonsense, when in fact it was not.

mmarshall

See my reply to spwolf just above.....it applies to you, too, for the same reason.

LeX2K

You specifically said Toyota is cost cutting (using inferior materials overall) and Hyundai is doing the opposite. I asked for some sort of proof of this, if it is only your opinion that's fine but if so then state as much.

mmarshall

We'll, yes, it my opinion in the sense that I don't actually subject those parts to formal lab and stress-tests. But, when you reach for a glove-box door that is of such thin plastic that it feels like a piece off cardboard in your hand, then latches on such a flimsy piece of hardware that the door barely stays shut, and when the seat-heater twirl-***** are so loose that they wobble in your fingertips, that goes beyond simple opinion....into fact. That, unfortunately, among other interior-hardware problems, is what I found in the latest Toyota Avalon.....a not-inexpensive car that can list over 40K.


Now...does that mean that the Avalon is a POS? No, not by any means. It still has a excellent, smooth, refined drivetrain, just like it always has, and the usual Toyota/Lexus mirror-smooth paint-job. But the interior, IMO, shows obvious signs of cost-cutting, and the suspension/tires have been firmed up unnecessarily over the previous models.

yowps3

mmarshall is absolutley spot on with his statements.

In fact Toyota themselves have just claimed that their record profits of recent were partly due to cost cutting.
I read an article a few years back about how Toyota was in the process of forcing their long term suppliers, which there are hundreds, if not thousands of, to cut the cost of their materials & parts or be booted in favour of cheaper chinese part suppliers.

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/r-...ak-yen-2014-11

This is of no surprise what so ever, I mean look at the transition from 2IS to 3IS, an absolute cost cutting galore, especially in regards to the interior. But also certain exterior elements too.
I will not go into detail as I'm sure you can easily find plenty of data right here at CL regarding the matter

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

i can see you want to be 'fair' but i don't see how toyota's fine being TEN TIMES what hyundai's is could possibly be fair, when (as far as i know) there isn't a shred of evidence that toyota caused anyone harm - i believe they were fined in such a massive way because the govt saw it as an easy way to make a billion.

on the other hand, while exaggerated gas claimed may not have physically harmed people directly, it materially hurt millions out of huge amounts of money (by paying more for gas than they expected).

so i don't have a problem with hyundai's fine, but i do have a problem with toyota's outrageous fine.

no idea what cost cutting or otherwise has to do with these fines... i don't believe any cost cutting toyota did endangered anyone.

mmarshall

Well, one can never overerestimate Washington's greed....and that is after we already have one of the world's highest tax rate on private corporations.

I'll respect your opinion (as I always do), but I don't really see it as that big an issue. Millions of people already pay more for gas than they need to simply because of a heavy right foot, regardless of EPA ratings.

Neither one is totally justified.


For the kind of cost-cutting I was talking about, you're right......it probably did not not physically endanger anyone. It just, IMO, makes the car less pleasant to sit in and use the controls/hardware.


Now, if you want to see an example of a REAL auto company F*** - Up, (and, IMO, a WELL-deserved fine/judgement), no offense, but I know you are probably old enough to remember the Ford Pinto's gas tanks going up like Roman Candles when significantly rear-ended at all but very low speeds. That was because, back in the days of King Henry (II)'s CEO-reign at Ford, money, fiefdom, and arrogance reigned supreme, and the employees (including engineers) simply weren't allowed to think for themselves. Management set a target empty curb-weight for the base-model Pinto (without options) at 2000 lbs. Because of that (and for cost reasons), engineers were told to remove the rearmost protective frame-rail cross-member behind the fuel tank, thereby directly exposing it to rear-impacts (there wasn't time to redo or adjust the car's body-on-frame design). Engineers protested that this was potentially dangerous and could result in many injuries/deaths.... but were told to finalize the design for production. The rest, of course, is automotive ihistory, and there is no doubt in my mind that Ford's management deserved every penny of the huge fine (perhaps even more) that the jury hit them with.