LS FCEV - the future for the LS
#16
Sales figures are only part of the reason for why the LSh is a huge failure.
The main reason is how Lexus positioned it as Performance hybrid but in reality it didn't have great performance nor great fuel economy - so there was no point to this car for a consumer plus it was way overpriced.
What Tesla did is INCREDIBLE - a manufacturer with no experience put the whole auto industry on notice because it delivered a high performance, great looking, Luxury sedan that used zero gas.
That is what i call changing the industry not what a waste of resources that the LS600h was.
Lexus didn't change the industry in terms of hybrids at all. Toyota did with the Prius.
What Lexus model is known for being a great hybrid?
RXh, ESh, CT - We used to have RX400h but only reason we got it bec it was cheaper to lease than the RX350 at that time.
The main reason is how Lexus positioned it as Performance hybrid but in reality it didn't have great performance nor great fuel economy - so there was no point to this car for a consumer plus it was way overpriced.
What Tesla did is INCREDIBLE - a manufacturer with no experience put the whole auto industry on notice because it delivered a high performance, great looking, Luxury sedan that used zero gas.
That is what i call changing the industry not what a waste of resources that the LS600h was.
Lexus didn't change the industry in terms of hybrids at all. Toyota did with the Prius.
What Lexus model is known for being a great hybrid?
RXh, ESh, CT - We used to have RX400h but only reason we got it bec it was cheaper to lease than the RX350 at that time.
Tesla made a great car, but it did not change the industry. Nobody else is copying Tesla because there is no money to be made there. Everyone is trying to copy Lexus and Toyota since they are making money and selling 1.4m hybrids per year.
Once again, I love Tesla tech and I would buy it over any Lexus hybrid if all else was equal, but at the same time, it did not really change anything or even influence anything except for perception maybe.
Toyota/Lexus probably wants the same to happen for LS FCEV in the future - low sales, but proving that luxury FC is possible, thus paving way for future models.
Of course, let me point out that LS600h sells around 25% of LS overall sales worldwide. I think you probably did not know this... US is not the world. Thats better than hybrid percentage for Camry for instance. So, not a failure at all.
#18
#19
In any case, point out how it changed the industry - and who is following Tesla, since I dont see anyone doing anything like that.
Great car - yes, industry changing - no.
#20
So many car companies could follow Tesla, take BMW i for example, but they don't. Because it does not work. Tesla does not make money, their stocks are overvalued. Tesla is 100% speculation. Telsa is of worse quality than Fiat, don't get how people pay 70K for it.
#22
Yes, BMW is trying EVs now with their i-brand, which have been designed from the start as EVs, not converted ICE platforms. It takes, proportionally, more courage and investment for a traditional automaker like BMW to introduce something completely new than it does for a completely new automaker like Tesla to introduce new technology. But let's see who, in the end, is ultimately successful: Is it Tesla, that has been courting the established automakers, like Toyota, MB and BMW (trying to get more investment) or will it be the established automakers, who, by waiting, can later introduce EVs that are backed by the legacy of an existing, successful, full-line automaker?
#24
I think the Tesla has great potential.
It's quick.
Has a front and rear trunk.
The Tesla S is a low emissions vehicle LEV, but NOT a zero emissions vehicle ZEV.
To be a zero emissions vehicle, the electricity generating power plant that recharges the batteries would have to be:
1) solar powered
2) wind powered
3) sea wave powered
4) hydro-electric powered by rain falling on the dam, and water running off the dam,
5) geothermal powered by heat, but restricted by location.
The problem is that most of the recharging electricity for the Tesla, and even electricity to produce hydrogen for hydrogen fuel cell vehicles like the Mirai and 2017 Lexus 5LS FCV - is produced by coal, or oil, which still produces carbon emissions, though less.
Nuclear power plants produce zero carbon emission, however they produce tons of radioactive plutonium which is even worse.
Continuing, the full electric vehicle EV Tesla S has great potential, however they must still address cabin space efficiency, and weight, because the batteries under the floor rob the cabin of 100 mm in vertical height.
Furthermore, although the Tesla is built from aluminium, it still tips the scale at over 2,100 kg for the base model.
By comparison, a base model Lexus 4GS350, which has more vertical cabin space, weighs only 1,650 kg, so the 4GS350 will kill the Tesla S on the handling circuit.
Ultimately, the conventional gasoline powered piston engine is only 2/3, or even half the cost.
A future small capacity turbo will make the 5GS a even more compelling argument against the Tesla S.
Other things that the Tesla must develop include recharge times.
Presently, a typical home power point takes 72 hours to recharge the Tesla's batteries!
A "supercharger" power outlet available at restricted locations can charge 80% of the battery in 20 minutes, and the entire 100% in 40 minutes, but be careful, because with superfast recharging, the overall longevity of the battery pack will be reduced in years.
By comparison, a gasoline car only takes 3 minutes to refuel, while even a hydrogen car takes just 5 minutes...
It's quick.
Has a front and rear trunk.
The Tesla S is a low emissions vehicle LEV, but NOT a zero emissions vehicle ZEV.
To be a zero emissions vehicle, the electricity generating power plant that recharges the batteries would have to be:
1) solar powered
2) wind powered
3) sea wave powered
4) hydro-electric powered by rain falling on the dam, and water running off the dam,
5) geothermal powered by heat, but restricted by location.
The problem is that most of the recharging electricity for the Tesla, and even electricity to produce hydrogen for hydrogen fuel cell vehicles like the Mirai and 2017 Lexus 5LS FCV - is produced by coal, or oil, which still produces carbon emissions, though less.
Nuclear power plants produce zero carbon emission, however they produce tons of radioactive plutonium which is even worse.
Continuing, the full electric vehicle EV Tesla S has great potential, however they must still address cabin space efficiency, and weight, because the batteries under the floor rob the cabin of 100 mm in vertical height.
Furthermore, although the Tesla is built from aluminium, it still tips the scale at over 2,100 kg for the base model.
By comparison, a base model Lexus 4GS350, which has more vertical cabin space, weighs only 1,650 kg, so the 4GS350 will kill the Tesla S on the handling circuit.
Ultimately, the conventional gasoline powered piston engine is only 2/3, or even half the cost.
A future small capacity turbo will make the 5GS a even more compelling argument against the Tesla S.
Other things that the Tesla must develop include recharge times.
Presently, a typical home power point takes 72 hours to recharge the Tesla's batteries!
A "supercharger" power outlet available at restricted locations can charge 80% of the battery in 20 minutes, and the entire 100% in 40 minutes, but be careful, because with superfast recharging, the overall longevity of the battery pack will be reduced in years.
By comparison, a gasoline car only takes 3 minutes to refuel, while even a hydrogen car takes just 5 minutes...
Last edited by peteharvey; 12-28-14 at 07:20 PM.
#25
Sigh, Lexus should've went with a plug-in hybrid YEARS ago then now moving into hydrogen would've been the perfect compliment. Also even though Lexus continues their messaging of maintaining practical vehicles and that is why they stick with hybrid, there is no premiem car executive that is not regretting not coming out with a fully electric luxury vehicle like the Tesla Model S.
#26
An electric has the option hydrogen or gas will never have, you can charge the car at home. To me that makes up for the slower "fuel" times since the vast majority of people take long trips a few times per year and the rest of the driving is done near the house.
#27
Lots of hate on tesla in this thread. Any actual owners here besides me? i have owned every high end brand except for the exotics, and the Model S makes all cars look bad. I dont care to elaborate cuz haters gonna hate anyway, but a good analogy is this: the Model S is the Ipod/Ipad of the auto industry. I only hang onto my gasoline powered cars because those were my dream cars when i was growing up.
#28
Lots of hate on tesla in this thread. Any actual owners here besides me? i have owned every high end brand except for the exotics, and the Model S makes all cars look bad. I dont care to elaborate cuz haters gonna hate anyway, but a good analogy is this: the Model S is the Ipod/Ipad of the auto industry. I only hang onto my gasoline powered cars because those were my dream cars when i was growing up.
Personally, I do not trust Elon Musk. I do not believe that he is an honest man.
#29
Lots of hate on tesla in this thread. Any actual owners here besides me? i have owned every high end brand except for the exotics, and the Model S makes all cars look bad. I dont care to elaborate cuz haters gonna hate anyway, but a good analogy is this: the Model S is the Ipod/Ipad of the auto industry. I only hang onto my gasoline powered cars because those were my dream cars when i was growing up.
I think the Tesla S has great potential, but I don't think it's smart for me to put my money on it yet; am I right?
#30
Tesla is hated because it challenges so many norms in the auto and energy industry. For the energy sector it's downright scary because it removes them from the equation, you are no longer a slave to the gas pump. Hydrogen keeps you a slave to the pump, just a different kind of fuel.
You think a Tesla charging station is a restriction? Hydrogen has it beat so badly it's not even funny, with a Tesla you can drive around the country for the most part a FCV forget it. It costs $1 million+ to build a hydrogen station and about $25,000 for an electric.
You think a Tesla charging station is a restriction? Hydrogen has it beat so badly it's not even funny, with a Tesla you can drive around the country for the most part a FCV forget it. It costs $1 million+ to build a hydrogen station and about $25,000 for an electric.
Last edited by LeX2K; 12-28-14 at 08:51 PM.