2016 Cadillac CT6 (Page 4)
#376
The price matters in that it is difficult to build a smaller Focus in the US or Canada than it is in Mexico. In the case of Toyota, moving the Corolla to Mexico allows them to make a higher priced car in Canada.
#377
I am old enough that I can remember when our common attitude toward the growing invasion of cheap Japanese cars (and then some years later, the growing invasion of cheap Korean cars) was very similar to our current attitude toward the pending wave of Chinese-built vehicles. We were afraid of the cheap (in both senses of the word -- very low quality and very low price) cars that were coming in waves.
Yet, now we see Japanese cars as high-quality, highly-aspirational cars; Korean cars are no longer seen as low-quality and they are also starting to build aspirational vehicles. The Chinese cars will come and the first ones will be cheap (low quality and low price) but they will get better, and in 10 to 15 years, we will start to see them as stylish, relatively high quality cars. Our experience with Korean cars reflects our experience with Japanese cars, and our experience with Chinese cars will reflect our experience with Korean cars.
#378
I am old enough that I can remember when our common attitude toward the growing invasion of cheap Japanese cars (and then some years later, the growing invasion of cheap Korean cars) was very similar to our current attitude toward the pending wave of Chinese-built vehicles. We were afraid of the cheap (in both senses of the word -- very low quality and very low price) cars that were coming in waves.
Yet, now we see Japanese cars as high-quality, highly-aspirational cars; Korean cars are no longer seen as low-quality and they are also starting to build aspirational vehicles. The Chinese cars will come and the first ones will be cheap (low quality and low price) but they will get better, and in 10 to 15 years, we will start to see them as stylish, relatively high quality cars. Our experience with Korean cars reflects our experience with Japanese cars, and our experience with Chinese cars will reflect our experience with Korean cars.
Yet, now we see Japanese cars as high-quality, highly-aspirational cars; Korean cars are no longer seen as low-quality and they are also starting to build aspirational vehicles. The Chinese cars will come and the first ones will be cheap (low quality and low price) but they will get better, and in 10 to 15 years, we will start to see them as stylish, relatively high quality cars. Our experience with Korean cars reflects our experience with Japanese cars, and our experience with Chinese cars will reflect our experience with Korean cars.
In fact, since you're an engineer, it would be interesting to get your take on the Envision's build-quality. Except for the seats, I was quite impressed with it.
#379
Have you looked at a Buick Envision? It is Chinese-made, yet, seemingly like a Swiss-Watch. I went over several different samples with a fine tooth comb (though, admittedly, without a test-drive), and I couldn't find any visible assembly defects like loose parts, uneven gap-widths, clunky door/hood/trunk closings, etc......The only real screw-up, IMO, was putting flat, uncomfortable, poorly-padded, Chinese-size seats in a vehicle that is going to be sold to big Americans.....and the odd new-car smell that was unlike any leather I had seen. But that isn't the plant's fault.....the employees can only assemble what they are given by management.
In fact, since you're an engineer, it would be interesting to get your take on the Envision's build-quality. Except for the seats, I was quite impressed with it.
In fact, since you're an engineer, it would be interesting to get your take on the Envision's build-quality. Except for the seats, I was quite impressed with it.
#380
for some reason if it's china it's ok to be 'outraged'. i don't get it.
Not sure why you think it is OK?
should americans not buy flagship apple iphones because they're made in china by foxconn's half million employees there?
#381
But it is not ok IMO for a Cadillac to be built in China when they could make it in the USA.
#382
I would be insulted. If I were to pay a premium for a Lexus vehicle, I believe it should come from Japan. Same thing for a Toyota. Especially if it was designed in Japan. Same thing for a German vehcile.
But it is not ok IMO for a Cadillac to be built in China when they could make it in the USA.
But it is not ok IMO for a Cadillac to be built in China when they could make it in the USA.
#383
short memory... japan and s. korea have both had HORRIBLE trade restrictions and massive tariffs in the past. selling ANY cars or electronics in s. korea has been pretty much impossible (got better somewhat recently).
Agreed.
I am old enough that I can remember when our common attitude toward the growing invasion of cheap Japanese cars (and then some years later, the growing invasion of cheap Korean cars) was very similar to our current attitude toward the pending wave of Chinese-built vehicles. We were afraid of the cheap (in both senses of the word -- very low quality and very low price) cars that were coming in waves.
Yet, now we see Japanese cars as high-quality, highly-aspirational cars; Korean cars are no longer seen as low-quality and they are also starting to build aspirational vehicles. The Chinese cars will come and the first ones will be cheap (low quality and low price) but they will get better, and in 10 to 15 years, we will start to see them as stylish, relatively high quality cars. Our experience with Korean cars reflects our experience with Japanese cars, and our experience with Chinese cars will reflect our experience with Korean cars.
I am old enough that I can remember when our common attitude toward the growing invasion of cheap Japanese cars (and then some years later, the growing invasion of cheap Korean cars) was very similar to our current attitude toward the pending wave of Chinese-built vehicles. We were afraid of the cheap (in both senses of the word -- very low quality and very low price) cars that were coming in waves.
Yet, now we see Japanese cars as high-quality, highly-aspirational cars; Korean cars are no longer seen as low-quality and they are also starting to build aspirational vehicles. The Chinese cars will come and the first ones will be cheap (low quality and low price) but they will get better, and in 10 to 15 years, we will start to see them as stylish, relatively high quality cars. Our experience with Korean cars reflects our experience with Japanese cars, and our experience with Chinese cars will reflect our experience with Korean cars.
But it is not ok IMO for a Cadillac to be built in China when they could make it in the USA.
bottom line, cars are made and sold everywhere. toyota makes cars all over the world also. the lexus es is or is about to be built at toyota's u.s. factory. i doubt u.s. consumers will care.
you're certainly entitled to choose only the toyotas and lexus models designed and built in japan though!
#384
#385
#387
Originally Posted by Hoovey2411
So you're saying we should change Jill's SN to ToyROLAJil
Last edited by mmarshall; 09-19-16 at 02:48 PM.
#388
I think the main thing I have with a Chinese made car is the Chinese culture in general and their complete disregard for copyright and patent laws. In traditional Chinese culture, if you have a great product, a great service, a great movie, you make a copy of it to show how great it is. So you have all kinds of stupid western knockoffs like this:
Bootleg movies
Knockoff cars
The only cars worth a crap that are built in China come from major Japanese, Korean, European or American Manufacturers. The independent Chinese made cars are just horrible pieces of structurally unsafe crap compared to the major names in the industry.
That, in a nutshell is why I don't like Chinese made cars. The people would much rather make a really crappy copy than try and innovate.
Bootleg movies
Knockoff cars
The only cars worth a crap that are built in China come from major Japanese, Korean, European or American Manufacturers. The independent Chinese made cars are just horrible pieces of structurally unsafe crap compared to the major names in the industry.
That, in a nutshell is why I don't like Chinese made cars. The people would much rather make a really crappy copy than try and innovate.
#389
I was in Chantilly today on business and drove a few cars, I decided I would have another look at the CT6, this time focusing on seeing what I could get for what I feel this car is worth, which is mid $60s. Take the TT engine out of the equation, and the platinum trim because IMHO it just elevates this car to a place where its just really not a value and doesn't belong. Mid $70s buys you an LS460, a Jaguar XJ, an Audi A8...all vehicles in a different league, and a TT car is mid $70s sparsely optioned, well optioned they are $80k solid. Its not an $80k car IMHO.
If I as a buyer were going to buy a CT6 instead of staying in a flagship car like my LS, I would want to save money, so I figured that $65k was about where I would want to be tops.
As luck would have it, they had a nice one there at the dealer. It was a Moonstone on Cinnamon 3.6L AWD, this was a Premium Luxury car so this had the virtual gauges which is a must. No adaptive cruise or anything like that, no Panaray audio, no active chassis control. Sticker $66k, perfect.
Spent some time with the car and took it on a good test drive, and looking at it as an example of something that I would pay $66k for, meaning I would be in an A6 or a loaded GS or a well optioned 5 series, or an E Class lowly optioned with a 4cyl I came away feeling more positive about the car than I did when I originally looked at it. Its a great looking car, really it is especially in the Moonstone. I like the Cinnamon interior actually, although its a shame it only comes with the carbon fiber trim. I would want wood. The car rides really well, not as well as the LS but very solid and refined, very quiet. The 3.6L is smooth and powerful enough. Base Bose audio is easily better than the base audio in my LS. The latest iteration of CUE works well.
I came away from it looking at it a couple different ways:
1. Its $14,000 cheaper than my LS460.
2. Assuming the next LS goes all LWB like everybody else has at this point but Jaguar (A8 is LWB only too if you don't get the S8), a new gen AWD LS lowly optioned is going to be $85k easy, so now its $19,000 cheaper than that and really anything else in that segment
3. It has an American swagger about it that I personally like. Its not going to be ostentatious like a Jag XJ which would be the remaining value flagship player.
4. Inside it is not as nicely finished as the LS, or any of those flagship cars, but at that price savings thats something you can justify. When its a loaded $80k Platinum it isn't, and many of the quality issues remain on that model.
Looking at it this way, the car has a lot of appeal...would I next time go to a car like the one I drove to save ~$15-20k or ~ $300/mo in a lease payment? Yeah...I seriously might. Would I rather have this car than a loaded GS, a well optioned 535, a loaded A6, or a sparsely optioned E300...yeah...yeah I would.
Some pictures of a similar car:
If I as a buyer were going to buy a CT6 instead of staying in a flagship car like my LS, I would want to save money, so I figured that $65k was about where I would want to be tops.
As luck would have it, they had a nice one there at the dealer. It was a Moonstone on Cinnamon 3.6L AWD, this was a Premium Luxury car so this had the virtual gauges which is a must. No adaptive cruise or anything like that, no Panaray audio, no active chassis control. Sticker $66k, perfect.
Spent some time with the car and took it on a good test drive, and looking at it as an example of something that I would pay $66k for, meaning I would be in an A6 or a loaded GS or a well optioned 5 series, or an E Class lowly optioned with a 4cyl I came away feeling more positive about the car than I did when I originally looked at it. Its a great looking car, really it is especially in the Moonstone. I like the Cinnamon interior actually, although its a shame it only comes with the carbon fiber trim. I would want wood. The car rides really well, not as well as the LS but very solid and refined, very quiet. The 3.6L is smooth and powerful enough. Base Bose audio is easily better than the base audio in my LS. The latest iteration of CUE works well.
I came away from it looking at it a couple different ways:
1. Its $14,000 cheaper than my LS460.
2. Assuming the next LS goes all LWB like everybody else has at this point but Jaguar (A8 is LWB only too if you don't get the S8), a new gen AWD LS lowly optioned is going to be $85k easy, so now its $19,000 cheaper than that and really anything else in that segment
3. It has an American swagger about it that I personally like. Its not going to be ostentatious like a Jag XJ which would be the remaining value flagship player.
4. Inside it is not as nicely finished as the LS, or any of those flagship cars, but at that price savings thats something you can justify. When its a loaded $80k Platinum it isn't, and many of the quality issues remain on that model.
Looking at it this way, the car has a lot of appeal...would I next time go to a car like the one I drove to save ~$15-20k or ~ $300/mo in a lease payment? Yeah...I seriously might. Would I rather have this car than a loaded GS, a well optioned 535, a loaded A6, or a sparsely optioned E300...yeah...yeah I would.
Some pictures of a similar car:
Last edited by SW17LS; 09-21-16 at 06:00 PM.