2017 Lincoln Continental
#886
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Nice write-up, 1Blink.
I agree that it gives the CT6 a run for the money, especially inside. And, for most typical American driving conditions and speeds, I don't agree, as some are saying, that the CT6's RWD set-up is inherently superior. On the German Autobahn, though, it might be a different case.
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Like I said with the watch analogy, a quartz movement tells time just fine, but no watch enthusiast is going to tell you that a quartz movement watch is a true quality watch. As someone who buys a watch that may or may not matter to you. I'm someone who likes watches but I'm not an "enthusiast", so to me I really don't care about a watch being a quartz or automatic movement. People who are wine enthusiasts know that some wines are better and of higher quality for certain reasons, to me as someone who just likes wines but is not an "enthusiast" as long as its a good quality wine I'm good, I don't understand or care about what makes a "great" wine. Just because someone doesn't understand or doesn't care about what is a "proper" layout for a quality automobile doesn't mean there isn't a difference that enthusiasts do understand and care about. I would throw out there that somebody who doesn't care if their automobile is a longitudinal or a transverse layout may "like cars", but are they really a car "enthusiast"? I would argue perhaps not.
I don't care how great it drives, I'm not buying a transverse layout car of this caliber/price point. Not interested at all. $45,000 entry level ES or something, sure. $60,000+ luxury automobile? I want it to be the proper layout, not utilize a lesser layout to save production cost. $700 watch? Quartz is fine. $3,500+ luxury watch? Needs an automatic movement.
Last edited by SW17LS; 02-27-17 at 12:53 PM.
#887
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It IS inherently superior. The question is whether or not the ways in which it is superior matter to you in your everyday driving. There is a reason that as cars get more expensive they shift from transverse FWD layouts to longitudinal RWD layouts...why is a Rolls Royce RWD as an example? Not designed to canyon carve or the autobahn. Its RWD because thats whats "proper" in a quality automobile, and its an automobile that is designed without any care given to expense of design or production. Bottom line is, carmakers use FWD predominantly to save cost. It doesn't offer any dynamic benefits, only tradeoffs.
Like I said with the watch analogy, a quartz movement tells time just fine, but no watch enthusiast is going to tell you that a quartz movement watch is a true quality watch. As someone who buys a watch that may or may not matter to you. I'm someone who likes watches but I'm not an "enthusiast", so to me I really don't care about a watch being a quartz or automatic movement.
$700 watch? Quartz is fine. $3,500+ luxury watch? Needs an automatic movement.
$700 watch? Quartz is fine. $3,500+ luxury watch? Needs an automatic movement.
People who are wine enthusiasts know that some wines are better and of higher quality for certain reasons, to me as someone who just likes wines but is not an "enthusiast" as long as its a good quality wine I'm good, I don't understand or care about what makes a "great" wine.
Just because someone doesn't understand or doesn't care about what is a "proper" layout for a quality automobile doesn't mean there isn't a difference that enthusiasts do understand and care about. I would throw out there that somebody who doesn't care if their automobile is a longitudinal or a transverse layout may "like cars", but are they really a car "enthusiast"? I would argue perhaps not.
I don't care how great it drives, I'm not buying a transverse layout car of this caliber/price point. Not interested at all. $45,000 entry level ES or something, sure. $60,000+ luxury automobile? I want it to be the proper layout, not utilize a lesser layout to save production cost. .
$45,000 entry level ES or something, sure.
Last edited by mmarshall; 02-27-17 at 02:46 PM.
#888
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While I prefer the feel of RWD, in a sporty or sports car. It is frankly ignorant so say if you don't prefer RWD or don't care that you are not an enthusiast. Tell that to the Integra guys, or really any number of import guys. Was the Integra Type R not an enthusiast car.
I am a watch lover, and do own $4k+ watches, so I see your point about appreciating refined mechanical things. However that applies more to a Ferrarri or other exotic than to a run of the mill Lincoln or Lexus luxury barge.
I am a watch lover, and do own $4k+ watches, so I see your point about appreciating refined mechanical things. However that applies more to a Ferrarri or other exotic than to a run of the mill Lincoln or Lexus luxury barge.
#889
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Nice write-up, 1Blink.
I agree that it gives the CT6 a run for the money, especially inside. And, for most typical American driving conditions and speeds, I don't agree, as some are saying, that the CT6's RWD set-up is inherently superior. On the German Autobahn, though, it might be a different case.
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#890
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Very large, full-size luxury cars in the RR/Bentley/Maybach class use RWD for two main reasons.......First, they are large enough inside so that the driveshaft-tunnel-intrusion and other cabin space-limitations from RWD aren't much of an issue, and, Second, because they are probably more likely to be driven on the German Autobahns at triple-digit speeds than, say, a Continental.
And the reason these uber expensive cars are longitudinal/RWD is because its the best layout. If FWD were superior, even if only the reason they can go RWD is because "they have the space" why would they use the space for the inferior setup?
Show me a transverse/FWD car over $200,000 and I will eat my words. Hell, show me one over $100,000.
I wouldn't even bring up a watch analogy, as most people nowadays use their cell phones to keep time.
There are lots of "quality" vehicles on the market that have lots of different layouts. I simply don't agree with your assertion that it is "proper" to do it in any one method. And, don't forget that a number of good FWD vehicles use boxer or longitudinal layouts, such as Audis and Subarus (makes it easier to both FWD and AWD). I don't know of any purely RWD vehicles with a transverse engine, but a number do AWD with it. And Porsches do both RWD and AWD with the engines in the rear....a sort of reverse longitudinal layout.
That's fine. We can respect your opinion....but that doesn't mean that others it the market have to feel the same way. For many people (and IMO, 1Blink does seem to be a car enthusiast), and for typical American driving conditions, FWD vs. RWD is simply not an issue....except maybe for winter traction. They aren't (except perhaps in an emergency) going to be doing the kind of super-sharp handling where the inherently better weight distribution is going to make any real difference on understeer/neutral/oversteer conditions.
Now, you can decide that you don't care about those tradeoffs, but that doesn't mean they aren't there. An "enthusiast" is somebody that recognizes the tradeoffs.
The ES may be close to "entry-level" by Lexus sedan standards (and even then, it's positioned above the RWD IS)...but the ES is also quite a nice vehicle. I wouldn't consider it an "entry-level" product on the niceness-scale by any means....it's well up there.
Originally Posted by LOWFAST
While I prefer the feel of RWD, in a sporty or sports car. It is frankly ignorant so say if you don't prefer RWD or don't care that you are not an enthusiast. Tell that to the Integra guys, or really any number of import guys. Was the Integra Type R not an enthusiast car.
"Not caring" doesn't make you a non-enthusiast, not understanding the difference does is what I'm saying. If you think the only benefits of a longitudinal RWD setup is high handling maneuvers and performance driving, you don't understand the differences.
I am a watch lover, and do own $4k+ watches, so I see your point about appreciating refined mechanical things. However that applies more to a Ferrarri or other exotic than to a run of the mill Lincoln or Lexus luxury barge.
Note I have no issue with the ES or MKZ being transverse FWD, I would buy either car if I were looking in that range. But, the Continental is a different story. Like I've said before, when Lincoln rolled it out they sent the message they weren't serious. I don't care how much they've hidden the fact that its a FWD car, its still a FWD car. I want the real deal, not something that they're doctoring up to feel as close to the real deal as they can.
Last edited by SW17LS; 02-27-17 at 03:28 PM.
#891
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The Continental is a huge car. The choice of a transverse FWD layout on the Continental and the use of a Taurus platform was not to save space, it was to save cost. Thats fine on a $45,000 ES, but when we're talking about a $60,000+ legit luxury sedan thats an issue for me.
And the reason these uber expensive cars are longitudinal/RWD is because its the best layout. If FWD were superior, even if only the reason they can go RWD is because "they have the space" why would they use the space for the inferior setup?
Show me a transverse/FWD car over $200,000 and I will eat my words. Hell, show me one over $100,000.
Watch enthusiasts don't. People still buy watches, and the analogy stands. Its like saying you can't draw an analogy from cars because "most people nowadays use Uber". Its not true, and even if it were we're talking about enthusiasts here.
Bottom line is, the gold standard of how to build a car is longitudinal engine, rear wheel drive. Other layouts are niche layouts and they provide different benefits, but the only reason carmakers have the front wheels doing all the power delivery is to save cost. That setup offers no dynamic benefit.
I completely disagree. As soon as I drive a FWD car I feel the tradeoffs. You feel it when you take it into a corner, or a freeway onramp or offramp, you feel it in the steering feel and engine vibration through the steering wheel. You feel it in how the front suspension absorbs bumps and road imperfections. You see it in the proportions and styling of the car, you feel it in your seating position and how you look out over the hood of the car. All of these tradeoffs for transverse/FWD layouts surround you when you drive the car, look at the car, and sit in the car at normal everyday use.
Now, you can decide that you don't care about those tradeoffs, but that doesn't mean they aren't there. An "enthusiast" is somebody that recognizes the tradeoff
And the reason these uber expensive cars are longitudinal/RWD is because its the best layout. If FWD were superior, even if only the reason they can go RWD is because "they have the space" why would they use the space for the inferior setup?
Show me a transverse/FWD car over $200,000 and I will eat my words. Hell, show me one over $100,000.
Watch enthusiasts don't. People still buy watches, and the analogy stands. Its like saying you can't draw an analogy from cars because "most people nowadays use Uber". Its not true, and even if it were we're talking about enthusiasts here.
Bottom line is, the gold standard of how to build a car is longitudinal engine, rear wheel drive. Other layouts are niche layouts and they provide different benefits, but the only reason carmakers have the front wheels doing all the power delivery is to save cost. That setup offers no dynamic benefit.
I completely disagree. As soon as I drive a FWD car I feel the tradeoffs. You feel it when you take it into a corner, or a freeway onramp or offramp, you feel it in the steering feel and engine vibration through the steering wheel. You feel it in how the front suspension absorbs bumps and road imperfections. You see it in the proportions and styling of the car, you feel it in your seating position and how you look out over the hood of the car. All of these tradeoffs for transverse/FWD layouts surround you when you drive the car, look at the car, and sit in the car at normal everyday use.
Now, you can decide that you don't care about those tradeoffs, but that doesn't mean they aren't there. An "enthusiast" is somebody that recognizes the tradeoff
Don't worry, though....we'll find plenty of things to agree on. We always do.
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The ES is "entry level". The ES is not above the IS, the two vehicles exist in the model lineup in parallel to each other. Just because something is entry level doesn't mean it isn't nice. Its the cheapest full sedan Lexus you can buy, which makes it entry level.
#892
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If the common conception in the industry were NOT that longitudinal/RWD was superior...why would that be? Why wouldn't an S Class or a Rolls Royce or a Bentley be a FWD car?
The bottom line is for me, the fact that the Continental is a Taurus derived transverse/FWD car would disqualify it as an option for me at the price points where I would want one equipped (~$65k). Having driven both a CT6 and the Continental equipped that way, I would easily choose the CT6 despite the Continental having a better quality interior. North of $70k I wouldn't consider either car for different reasons. IMHO the CT6 doesn't ride too firmly as long as its not on huge wheels, and I didn't find that much difference in ride between it and the Continental. IMHO the continental looks and feels like what it is, a transverse FWD car based off the Taurus. Not for me at that money.
What I meant is that a base IS undercuts a base ES in price....though not by a large amount (less than 2K).
Last edited by SW17LS; 02-27-17 at 03:39 PM.
#893
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^ I'd also argue in the past several years a lot of the higher end cars that were exclusively RWD now come with an AWD option, and its proven very popular. AWD, with the engine sitting north to south in the engine bay is what most people are buying in the luxury car segment(ie above 60k). Some cars, like the AMG S63 and E63, Bentley Continential, almost all Audis only come with four wheel drive.
#894
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^ I'd also argue in the past several years a lot of the higher end cars that were exclusively RWD now come with an AWD option, and its proven very popular. AWD, with the engine sitting north to south in the engine bay is what most people are buying in the luxury car segment(ie above 60k). Some cars, like the AMG S63 and E63, Bentley Continential, almost all Audis only come with four wheel drive.
However, if I lived in a place where it never snowed, I would want plain old RWD. There are some tradeoffs, nothing like the tradeoffs with a transverse/FWD layout though.
#895
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^ Yeah where I live it hardly ever snows(only once this winter at my house, less than an inch). The one fun thing about RWD vs AWD in a big luxury car is you can do hooligan **** in them, if you so desire. Not that I advocate burnouts and driving like an a@@hole on the street, but every once in a while it can be fun to slide around sideways in a big empty parking lot at 1:00am to relieve some stress(if its wet out, you don't really wear the tires out either)
#896
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^ Yeah where I live it hardly ever snows(only once this winter at my house, less than an inch). The one fun thing about RWD vs AWD in a big luxury car is you can do hooligan **** in them, if you so desire. Not that I advocate burnouts and driving like an a@@hole on the street, but every once in a while it can be fun to slide around sideways in a big empty parking lot at 1:00am to relieve some stress(if its wet out, you don't really wear the tires out either)
#897
Lexus Fanatic
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I do miss doing power slides in the snow in my LS400 and LS430 lol. The 460 won't do one.
#898
Lexus Fanatic
#899
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#900
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^ I'd also argue in the past several years a lot of the higher end cars that were exclusively RWD now come with an AWD option, and its proven very popular. AWD, with the engine sitting north to south in the engine bay is what most people are buying in the luxury car segment(ie above 60k). Some cars, like the AMG S63 and E63, Bentley Continential, almost all Audis only come with four wheel drive.