pman6

corolla, sentra, or civic ?

civic hands down.

5 door hatch is coming? nice

pbm317

Here's my quick write up of the event:



The 2016 Honda Civic marks the 10th generation of a vehicle line that dates back to 1973. A model with rich history and internal code names such as "Super Civic," " Wonder Civic," and "Miracle Civic" has more recently lost a bit of that magic, focusing instead on mass-market appeal. Honda is shaking off the rust, flexing its muscles and vowing to regain its mojo with this all-new "Epic Civic."

The Civic Sedan starts the wave of the most expansive Civic lineup ever, which will be followed by the Coupe, 5-Door Hatchback, Si and Type R.

Design:
Where the outgoing model sits a bit upright and bubbly, the 2016 Civic looks low and wide thanks to an increase in width of nearly 2 inches, and length by nearly 3 inches. The Civic is now nearly the size of the Accord from just a few years ago! Tapering the front overhang by 1.2 inches and reducing the height by 0.8 inches aid in achieving a sleek, better proportioned profile and It moves the Civic from a rather appliance-like appearance to something decidedly more athletic and premium in nature.

Up front, thin projector-style headlamps provide a modern appearance that gets amplified even further on the new top-level Touring trim's LED lights. On the back, all Civics have a standard LED signature lighting element that is instantly recognizable on the road with an arced shape on each side, further emphasizing the width.

Inside, the Civic loses its multi-tiered gauge layout, while retaining a simple digital speedometer. Materials have been improved all around, with well-padded armrests and soft touch materials along the dash and upper panels of the front doors (sorry backseat passengers will have to make do with harder plastics.)

Engineering:
In a rare move, Honda is launching an all-new platform at the same time as an all-new engine lineup. The new 2.0 liter 4-cylinder, which will see work in the LX and EX trims, comes in with 158 horsepower and 138 lb-ft of torque, increases of 15 and 9 units respectively over the old 1.8 liter. It does this while being more efficient at the same time, hitting 41 miles per gallon on the highway, up 2. This engine can be paired with a 6-speed manual or CVT automatic transmission.

The powerhouse of the sedan lineup will be the new 1.5 liter turbo 4-cylinder with its 174 horsepower and 162 lb-ft of torque. Combined city/highway efficiency is estimated to be the same as the smaller engine at 35 miles per gallon. This is the first time that the Civic is powered by Honda turbo engine technology.

Despite the increases in size and content, Honda's engineers were able to mitigate and actually reduce overall weights slightly, aiding in the improved safety and efficiency. Honda expects a top 5-star rating by NHTSA in addition to being a Top Safety Pick + from the IIHS.

Touchpoints:
The 2016 Civic starts life with a host of standard features such as bluetooth (for both phone and music), backup camera, automatic headlights, cruise control, illuminated steering wheel controls, and automatic climate control.

Honda Sensing safety and driver-assistance technology is available across the entire Civic lineup, and standard on the top-end Touring trim. This includes Collision Mitigation Braking System, Lane Departure Warning, Forward Collision Warning, Adaptive Cruise Control with Low Speed Follow, Lane Keeping Assist and Road Departure Mitigation. The "low speed follow" functionality allows the Civic to follow the vehicle ahead with the ability to bring the vehicle to a complete stop. This can be extremely beneficial in stop-and-go traffic! The Lane Keeping Assist can actively correct steering to help the driving maintain position within detected lane lines.

An available 7-inch display audio system comes with an Android-based interface, and offers up both Android Auto and Apple CarPlay. It can also be paired with an easy to use Gamin based navigation system with realtime traffic and 3D maps. Only thing the 7-inch unit lacks is a volume ****, relying on a capacitive slider.

Other small touches include a new push-to-open fuel door, negating the need to find a lever or button at night, and behind that is a capless fuel filler, no more twisting and figuring out where to hang a cap. Models with heated front seats now heat the seat backs in addition to the bottom cushions, while the Touring also offers heated rear cushions and rain-sensing wipers.

While the rear seats fold down to expand cargo flexibility, it should be noted that the entry-LX trim only offers a one-piece seatback, not quite as convenient as the 60/40 split found on other trims.

Driving Impressions:
Eschewing the mainstream targets that limited recent Civic product development, the North American led engineering efforts went abroad with the goal of creating a world-class benchmark for dynamic performance for the compact segment, even setting its eyes on some luxury sector competitors from Audi, BMW and Mercedes-Benz.

The 2016 Civic displays excellent road manners thanks to the rigid cabin structure and taut suspension turning. Road imperfections and bumps are quickly settled out and are largely non-events. The independent multi-link set up in the rear is a nice step above the torsion beam units some competitors use. Road and wind noise, often the Achilles heel of Honda vehicles, are hushed in even the entry LX thanks to an acoustic windshield, triple sealed doors, increased sound insulation, and class-leading aerodynamics.

Power from both the 2.0 liter and 1.5 liter turbo are smooth and linear, with just a bit of hesitation coming from the CVT transmission on a full throttle start. While the turbos impress with power, the hidden gem of the lineup might just be the 2.0 liter LX with 6 speed manual transmission. The shifts are typical Honda-smooth and the engine is smooth, singing all the way to redline.

Dual-pinion electric power steering with variable gear ratio provides confident and predictable inputs, but it can get a little numb and vague in longer corners, somewhat typical of these new electric units. Braking is immediate and firm thanks to a shorter pedal stroke and having disc brakes standard at all four corners, another premium touch above rear drum units. From LX to Touring, all of the Civics were able to handle the curves and hills of the Malibu Canyon roads with a high level of composure and fun.

All of this comes together to provide a wonderful foundation for the upcoming Si and Type R variants… Honda has indeed rekindled some of its magic in this "Epic Civic."

dseag2

I think the fact that we are taking so much time discussing the styling of a Honda Civic says a lot for the direction Honda has headed.

Fizzboy7

We can analyze the new Civic to death. But hands down, the biggest obstacle is going to be the horrid and failed Crossturd body shape. America does not like hatchbacks or cars that cross-dress. This car is a complete mess in back and hopefully that will effect sales.

pbm317

I was a bit apprehensive at first and also saw a hint of the Crosstour in the rear, but it was much better in person.

nthach

I will say this - Subaru and VW does this quite well in the US, and besides isn't the Prius technically considered a hatchback? :P

spwolf

i like it overall... i wonder when will the hatchback be out, sometimes next year?

All seems pretty nice, price is a bit higher now.

Finally nice new safety system from Honda. Do we know the price?
Also some reports (C&D?)said that response from radar cruise control has been pretty jerky. Mags need to start comparing these systems, because performance is often drastically different, not just in auto-brake tests but as we can see in normal driving... without someone doing comparo's, there is no way for buyers to know system's actual performance. So right now, all we know if the system has correct feature but we dont know if it is any good - thats like saying car has brakes but without telling us how it actually brakes. And we want to know how effective these are.

pbm317

Hatchback will be out next year. Pricing is actually fairly in line with the outgoing model. The base LX starts $150 higher, but the EX (non turbo) starts $150 lower than last year. Honda Sensing is $1,000, so a bit higher than the Toyota Safety Sense systems. Top Touring (which has Honda Sensing standard) is $26,500... I think the pricing is extremely reasonable for the all new content and execution.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Honda developed a technology to alert you when other Honda's are in the area

jk jk

spwolf

thanks for the info... so this compares to the most expensive Toyota system at $500.... it is double the price but still a lot better than before. I just wish someone will get to the idea of testing them all, in comparo or just testing it during full tests for mags, like they do with other stats (auto-brake testing is already done in somewhat limited way by regulating agencies in US, Japan and Europe)..

pbm317

Yes to double the price, but it has some features that the Toyota doesn't have. One of the biggest is low-speed follow (i.e. cruise control can bring you to a stop and hold you there). I don't think this is explicitly part of the Toyota package. I know some of the newer Lexus models offer it separately, but I don't think it's part of Toyota Safety Sense. This is the first application of the low-speed follow functionality in the Honda lineup.

Also, beyond Toyota's Lane Departure Alert, which provides audio/visual alerts, the Honda has lane keep assist and road departure mitigation which can actively nudge the steering to help maintain course.

The low-speed follow/cruise control functionality alone would be worth a hefty price premium, especially in areas like LA.

spwolf

Yep - TSS P has those features, while TSS C does not.... one is $300 and other is $500. For instance just few days ago we found out that Prius c is getting TSS C now while 2016 Prius will get TSS P with all speed cruise control and steer assists. TSS P is essentially like LSS+.

All of this info for any manufacturer is hard to find out. For instance, we didnt know that TSS P will come with steer assists until Prius and LC were announced month ago. Or we didnt know that TSS C will still work until 140kmh - most of these lower systems stop working at much lower speeds.

For instance, whats the speed that Honda Sense works under (for auto brake?)? There was some other major launch few days ago where lane assists was announced but only at speeds over 50mph (forgot what car).

So differences are huge, not even mentioning that we have no clue how effective these systems are, basically it is as if we knew that these cars have "brakes", but we dont know how well they brake, do they dive, do they lock up, etc, etc.

Since Toyota started actually selling these in many cars in Europe few months ago, now I know how they are doing it for TSS C - which consists of lidar and camera. This is supposed to be $300 in the USA. Base system is in Aygo for very cheapo (€250 here with high taxes), and it has same auto-brake and lane warning. Then Yaris adds auto-high beams (Honda sense has this or?). Then Auris and Avensis add road sign assists (Avensis has it standard in even base car) - all with TSS C. These work at 6mph to 85mph and stop car by "30kmh" (which is weird measurement since they can stop for instance 50 kmh collision with stationary car). For us in Europe, this is all extremely cheap since for instance original accessory rear parking sensors (very simple kit) are €400 before install for any of these cars.

LC, RAV4 and Prius will have TSS P. This is supposed to be $500 in the US. First they only mention lane departure warning, but now Prius PR also has lane assist, so it is same as LSS+. Feature wise, they work from 6mph to unlimited speed, including auto brake at max speed (most current systems at $2k-$3k dont have max speed auto brake). They have better radar+camera that enable pedestrian detection and have stronger stopping power of 40kmh. They also have all speed radar cruise control, and rest of the TSS P features (sign detect, auto high beams).

Now, Prius also has new auto parking system that will also autobrake at parking speeds so you dont hit something when parking. It will also detect pedal misapplication so when granma hits gas instead of brakes in parking lot, it will not activate gas but brakes.

Now, I follow this so I know that there are differences between all of these... most people dont. I had a friend tell me that his Mazda has same system - it doesnt, it only works up until 15mph in any Mazda.

Or that Volvo video in China was funny when dealer was testing autobrake and hit the guy not knowing their base package does not work at such low speed or have pedestrian recognition. So people dont really even know how effective these systems in their cars are, and that info should be available to them, it is really important.

pbm317

Then you should know that Mazda also has 2 levels of systems, Smart City Brake Support (low speed as you mentioned), and Smart Brake Support (mid to high speed applications). I have no doubt that you're correct in assessing which your friend's Mazda has, but you can't say "any" Mazda.

In any case, both the Toyota systems and the Honda systems are much much cheaper than recent history as both brands look to promote the democratization of technology.

Motor

spwolf

Nope, I didnt know Mazda even had SBS... it seems to work between 9 and 88mph. When was this introduced in current state? His model was from 2013, so no chance he had it.

I just checked UK site, and it seems they have SBC as standard for refreshed Mazda 6,but SBS with radar cruise control is very expensive $2500 addon.

And actually, JNCAP just tested Mazda CX-5 with that system, and auto-brake system is pretty poor for the price, cant stop the crash at lower speeds completely, unlike Subaru's and even cheap Toyota systems. So basically it has lower autobrake capabilities than Toyota Safety System C at $300 but it is a $1500 charge ($2500 with radar cruise control).

Even SBC cant stop crash at 30kmh even though it works at that speed... it barely stops at 20kmh, so thats basically its limit.

This is exactly what I am talking about - they all use great PR but systems effectiveness is very different and I think it is very important to know what you are actually buying.

edit: also checked German site, not available there, just SBC, and in the US, it costs $1500 vs $2500 in the UK for SBS with radar cruise control. Still, besides the cost, problem is system effectivness as it does not perform as well as cheap systems, let alone higher end systems in Volvo/Subaru/Toyota (and also Honda? Japanese tests of new system should come out in few months).