Lentz on Lexus: Few Regrets
#46
Lead Lap
Have another look at a 1989 LS and a 1989 S-Class. The S-Class was an old fashioned car dragging on from 1981. The LS was far more modern and looked nothing like it. Then 2 years later, MB introduces an all new S-Class looking much closer to the 1989 LS than did the 89 S. So who was copying who again?
You're kidding yourself if you think the LS400 didn't have design inspiration from its biggest competitor. But aside from that, the LS400 was an incredible car that has a permanent spot in history. No need to quibble over the somewhat derivative styling.
#47
And I disagree with Lentz about not offering lesser, near-luxury cars. They help the brand, not hurt. MBZ, Audi, and BMW are all enjoying success with their entry models. If they are done right, they enhance the brand. Maybe he's forgetting the CT, or has a bad taste in his mouth due to that model's struggle to reach customers (hatches are a bad idea for luxury cars).
Honestly, CLA and A3 Sedan look soo cheap now, year after introduction. I have no idea why people dont just get A4 and C class.
#48
Lead Lap
Lexus has just been flying under the radar with the relatively cheap CT200h in terms of its low price after the disaster that was the HS250h.
#49
Lexus Champion
Have another look at a 1989 LS and a 1989 S-Class. The S-Class was an old fashioned car dragging on from 1981. The LS was far more modern and looked nothing like it. Then 2 years later, MB introduces an all new S-Class looking much closer to the 1989 LS than did the 89 S. So who was copying who again?
While Lexus was taking several well deserved victory laps in the years after the LS400, MB was already busy working on the beautifully styled W220 which knocked the squared of LS style into the weeds when it debuted in 1998.
If you want an even more obvious example take a look at the side profile and rear taillights of the 1997 E class and then do the same for the 2001 LS430. Something looking familiar there?
I beg to differ with you though on the W140 and the LS. The big Merc is way more squared off and "tank-like" compared to the 400. Two really different styles to me.
Last edited by MattyG; 05-13-15 at 02:32 PM.
#50
Lexus Test Driver
The A3 and CLA both offer cut-rate leases that easily beat out A4 and C class offerings. Money talks here. The CT offers the same price advantage, but I'm sticking to the "US customers do not care for luxury hatchbacks" as the main reason more sales are not achieved. The CT needs to be a sedan. Mercedes and BMW already learned the same hard lesson in the 90's.
And now that someone has mentioned it, there's no excuse for not bringing out the RC and TX at the same time. With all the healthy profits Toyota/Lexus enjoys, the stinginess is almost as bad as Honda's color offerings and option packages.
#51
I don't know what the hard numbers are, but it's been well-known in the industry the CT has not lived up to expectations. Better than the HS though.
The A3 and CLA both offer cut-rate leases that easily beat out A4 and C class offerings. Money talks here. The CT offers the same price advantage, but I'm sticking to the "US customers do not care for luxury hatchbacks" as the main reason more sales are not achieved. The CT needs to be a sedan. Mercedes and BMW already learned the same hard lesson in the 90's.
And now that someone has mentioned it, there's no excuse for not bringing out the RC and TX at the same time. With all the healthy profits Toyota/Lexus enjoys, the stinginess is almost as bad as Honda's color offerings and option packages.
The A3 and CLA both offer cut-rate leases that easily beat out A4 and C class offerings. Money talks here. The CT offers the same price advantage, but I'm sticking to the "US customers do not care for luxury hatchbacks" as the main reason more sales are not achieved. The CT needs to be a sedan. Mercedes and BMW already learned the same hard lesson in the 90's.
And now that someone has mentioned it, there's no excuse for not bringing out the RC and TX at the same time. With all the healthy profits Toyota/Lexus enjoys, the stinginess is almost as bad as Honda's color offerings and option packages.
#52
I don't know what the hard numbers are, but it's been well-known in the industry the CT has not lived up to expectations. Better than the HS though.
The A3 and CLA both offer cut-rate leases that easily beat out A4 and C class offerings. Money talks here. The CT offers the same price advantage, but I'm sticking to the "US customers do not care for luxury hatchbacks" as the main reason more sales are not achieved.
The A3 and CLA both offer cut-rate leases that easily beat out A4 and C class offerings. Money talks here. The CT offers the same price advantage, but I'm sticking to the "US customers do not care for luxury hatchbacks" as the main reason more sales are not achieved.
I for one am proud that Lexus chose a pure hatchback hybrid for this car. That the US is an epitome of wasted space doesn't mean all cars coming to US will have to follow suit. How is a CT sedan is not an HS?
Anyways the discussion has digressed from the original topic for quite a while now. Lexus can go ahead and decide what it does when. The market will decide ultimately what sticks. The current market has spoken that bigger luxury CUVs have the biggest growing demand. Almost all luxury makes are moving toward it for a piece of that pie. Lexus will continue to not provide a vehicle in that category at its own peril.
Last edited by LoveCT; 05-15-15 at 10:07 PM.
#53
exclusive matchup
iTrader: (4)
Quite the opposite of what your thoughts are on the CT actually. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_CT Jump to the sales section, where it says CT is the second best seller for Lexua after the RX.
I for one am proud that Lexus chose a pure hatchback hybrid for this car. That the US is an epitome of wasted space doesn't mean all cars coming to US will have to follow suit. How is a CT sedan is not an HS?
Anyways the discussion has digressed from the original topic for quite a while now. Lexus can go ahead and decide what it does when. The market will decide ultimately what sticks. The current market has spoken that bigger luxury CUVs have the biggest growing demand. Almost all luxury makes are moving toward it for a piece of that pie. Lexus will continue to not provide a vehicle in that category at its own peril.
I for one am proud that Lexus chose a pure hatchback hybrid for this car. That the US is an epitome of wasted space doesn't mean all cars coming to US will have to follow suit. How is a CT sedan is not an HS?
Anyways the discussion has digressed from the original topic for quite a while now. Lexus can go ahead and decide what it does when. The market will decide ultimately what sticks. The current market has spoken that bigger luxury CUVs have the biggest growing demand. Almost all luxury makes are moving toward it for a piece of that pie. Lexus will continue to not provide a vehicle in that category at its own peril.
#54
Forum Administrator
iTrader: (2)
Quite the opposite of what your thoughts are on the CT actually. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_CT Jump to the sales section, where it says CT is the second best seller for Lexua after the RX.
.
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http://corporatenews.pressroom.toyot...chart.download
EDIT - I now see the wiki link talks about second best HYBRID, not second best selling Lexus. That makes more sense but suspect RX, NX, possibly ES might give a run.
Last edited by DaveGS4; 05-15-15 at 09:48 PM.
#55
By the way, this was an answer to a raised point, whereas Lentz points that he's generally satisfied with CT's conquests. If we're questioning the first principles for all models under the Lexus umbrella then a whole whack of them need to be overhauled or scrapped.
And the US only consideration for hybrids is moot as almost none of them are built outside Japan and is exported around the world.
By the way there's a good chance that RC sales will tank in two years led by the F. A three row CUV sales would still be going strong then. Lentz knows this better than a lot of us. That Lexus is putting all its coins to transform its entire line to sport look moving away from its traditional "pursuit of perfection" is both laughable and worrisome. Lentz is concerned there as well.
As a young entrant to Lexus, I knew what its core value was. This foray to everything sport has me thinking what's wrong with BMW and Mercedes, as Lexus is not even close to as sporty vehicles as these other makes. At least the others have the DNA. Plus everyone in my friends and family who's seen or tried the new Lexus launches laments the lack of fit and finish of the interior trim that the previous years model used to show especially in the dash, console area.
And the notion that a halo vehicle is needed to improve sales is highly questionable. IS 250/350 sold more at the launch in 2005 than the second gen in 2014 http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_IS Why? There was no RC or LFA back then. Or are you saying this gen IS would not even sold as much if it was not for the LFA or the RC? What halo model helped the RX sales? Look, no matter how you put it, people are not that gullible to be tricked into a lower model because you show a 500k car. Not at least in today's information age. What LFA'esque halo car does the BMW have that makes it become the top seller of luxury cars?
Last edited by LoveCT; 05-16-15 at 08:26 AM.
#56
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by LoveCT
And the notion that a halo vehicle is needed to improve sales is highly questionable. IS 250/350 sold more at the launch in 2005 than the second gen in 2014
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_IS Why? There was no RC or LFA back then. Or are you saying this gen IS would not even sold as much if it was not for the LFA or the RC? What halo model helped the RX sales? Look, no matter how you put it, people are not that gullible to be tricked into a lower model because you show a 500k car. Not at least in today's information age. What LFA'esque halo car does the BMW have that makes it become the top seller of luxury cars?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_IS Why? There was no RC or LFA back then. Or are you saying this gen IS would not even sold as much if it was not for the LFA or the RC? What halo model helped the RX sales? Look, no matter how you put it, people are not that gullible to be tricked into a lower model because you show a 500k car. Not at least in today's information age. What LFA'esque halo car does the BMW have that makes it become the top seller of luxury cars?
#57
If you want cheaper, go with Toyota or Scion offerings. That is the thinking.
#58
In what industry is that? Not car industry for sure. CTh has been best selling luxury hatchback while competition still had luxury hatchbacks on sale in the USA (A3 hatch and BMW)... and it has been selling well worldwide.
#59
Lexus Fanatic
Outside of a typically nice Lexus paint job and the superb NuLuxe upholstery (which is arguably the best leather-imitation I've ever seen), the CT, both inside and out, does not strike me as much of a "luxury" hatchback. It suffers from road noise, a fairly stiff ride, so-so dash and panel trim, and a general lack of refinement. In my opinion, it is more of a Toyota than a Lexus....though there is no question that it has sold well under the Lexus nameplate.
#60
Outside of a typically nice Lexus paint job and the superb NuLuxe upholstery (which is arguably the best leather-imitation I've ever seen), the CT, both inside and out, does not strike me as much of a "luxury" hatchback. It suffers from road noise, a fairly stiff ride, so-so dash and panel trim, and a general lack of refinement. In my opinion, it is more of a Toyota than a Lexus....though there is no question that it has sold well under the Lexus nameplate.
You basically are the traditional Lexus clientèle that Lexus is trying to alienate in going forward and I don't necessarily like that. Neither does Lentz.
Last edited by LoveCT; 05-16-15 at 10:58 AM.