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Saw this article and thought it was a great read........and pretty much what I have been saying for decades. Pretty sure this article will interest many here .
There are a lot of car stereotypes out there, like that Toyota builds dull appliances. While true on many fronts, the Japanese automaker does also make exciting sporty cars like the Scion FR-S, and Lexus LFA, both praised for their exhilarating rides, edgy styling and pulse-raising performance. But there’s another stereotype that needs to be dealt with.
Likely you’ve heard the phrase “German engineering” more than a few times in your life and there’s a popular misconception that it equals good reliability. German cars are well engineered, sometimes to be amazing performance machines and sometimes to be incredibly high-tech (and often both) but, Porsche aside, German cars don’t have the best track record for reliability.
A REPUTATION EARNED
Part of the reason for the misconception about German engineering is that German automakers did, at one time, earn it. When Consumer Reports started its Long-Term Reliability Tests and Initial Quality Index tests way back in 1972, German brands like Volkswagen and Mercedes-Benz came out on top. The initial quality of even the lowly VW Beetle topped many domestic vehicles from Ford, Jeep, Pontiac and Mercury.
For a while afterwards, Mercedes and VW managed to stay near the top in reliability rankings. But their Japanese rivals weren’t sitting idly-by. In the 1980s and 90s the most reliable models ended up coming from Honda, Toyota, Acura, Infiniti and Lexus.
“Back then, the cars like the Beetle were pretty simple. But then came stronger competition, the Japanese [automakers], especially Toyota and Honda got their problems per 100, down to a science,” Said Gabriel Shenhar, an automotive engineer at Consumer Reports.
A REPUTATION LOST
In the late ‘90s Mercedes had released the dismally unreliable M-Class SUV (left) and the brand’s initial quality scores have plummeted since. Other German brands had similar experiences. Even though they stayed at the forefront of new technology and engineering practices, their new gizmos were prone to failing.
“They’re quick to adapt new technologies but rely on suppliers that supply these technologies and in a lot of cases what we see is problems with the electrical systems, the entertainment systems and other interface,” said Schenhar
According to Consumer Reports, Mercedes boosted its reliability a bit in 2011, but is still inconsistent. The same can be said for Mercedes’ German competitors, Audi and BMW. In Consumer Reports last five annual reports, the last time these German brands have been above average in reliability was back in 2007. Since then, they’ve all slumped below the average in the industry.
Consumer Reports’ Long-Term Reliability test documents a car’s reliability over the course of three years, while the Initial Quality Index is based on consumer feedback from the first few months of a new cars ownership.
Consumer Reports also has a report card that ranks automakers based on their average car score, reliability score and the percentage of recommended vehicles. The average score for these carmaker report cards over the past five years (when they started the report cards) of the German brands doesn’t crack 68/100, below the industry average and the competition from the top Japanese automakers.
These results are reflected in numbers released by J.D. Power & Associates as well. In the both of the latest J.D. Power Surveys, the German brands can’t match up to their luxury peers. In the most recent vehicle dependability survey, Mercedes-Benz only gets a four out of five, which is “Better than most” rating, while Audi and BMW get 3/5 or “About Average.” Volkswagen falls below average with 2/5, what J.D. Power describes as “The Rest.” Porsche is also ranked “Better than most” in J.D. Power’s dependability survey, which give Mercedes-Benz some nice company. It’s important to note that only one car maker had a score of 5/5, and that’s Lexus.
Nothing changes in J.D. Power’s Initial Quality rankings. Mercedes and Porsche have 4/5 ratings, BMW and Audi get just 3/5 and VW only achieves 2/5. Lexus tops that ranking as well with a 5/5.
The J.D. Power ratings are based on consumer surveys. Initial Quality is measured after 90 days of a new car’s purchase. Vehicle Dependability Ratings are surveys based on the past 12 months of original owners of three-year old cars.
POOR RANKING NOT JUST ABOUT QUALITY
Some of the reasons why German cars struggle in J.D. Power’s rankings in the past are entirely trivial and are not related to actual vehicle quality at all says Karl Brauer from Total Car Score.
“German cars didn’t offer cup holders for years, and while this isn’t a mechanical failure it was often noted as a dissatisfaction point for buyers on J.D. Power and Consumer Reports surveys, and this drove down their scores” said Brauer. “Most German cars (even Porsches) now have cup-holders because the manufacturers realized they were suffering in terms of owner satisfaction scores by not having them,” he added. The same thing could be said about some of the complicated technologies and infotainment systems like BMW’s first generation iDrive system (pictured right).
SACRIFICE FOR PERFORMANCE
Along with these more trivial complaints and technology issues, Shenhar of Consumer Reports tells us that German automakers, by their own admission, sometimes come up short because of their singular focus on performance. When and if they cut costs, the likely areas that will get cheaper quality parts will be with some of the stuff the customer might not notice.
“They are susceptible to cost-cutting and anywhere they can, in the hopes that the customer won’t know, they use suppliers that will deliver and sometimes won’t,” says Shenhar.
While the phrase “German Engineering” has become synonymous with reliability, Shenhar suggests it should more accurately be a reference to performance. And in regards to performance, there’s little doubt they have some high standards. In fact, looking away from initial quality and reliability, German vehicles rank quite well.
GERMAN CARS STILL APEAL-ING
In J.D. Power’s Automotive Performance, Execution & Layout (APEAL) study, which looks at how gratifying a new vehicle is to own and drive, based on owner evaluations, Porsche comes out on top, as the only automaker to get 5/5. Audi, BMW Mercedes and VW all achieve a 4/5 in this survey as well, showing that these cars are no slouch when it comes to performance and execution.
With its new 3-series, BMW has set the bar even higher for sport sedans, and the new Porsche 911 has again solidified the automakers place in automotive history for making the best sports car in the business. It’s no surprise then that both cars were in the running as finalists for the 2012 World Car of the Year Award.
Neither won, however, but that accolade did still go to a German car: the VW up! In fact, it’s VW’s fourth win in the past five years. Winners are selected based on overall merit, value, safety, environmental responsibility, emotional appeal, and significance.
It’s clear then that there are plenty of reasons to buy a car from automakers like BMW, Mercedes, Audi and Volkswagen, but if reliability is your top concern, don’t be fooled by the myth of “German engineering”.
I have learned the hard way that German cars are not the best cars to purchase second hand.
I bought a used 2002 Mercedes E55 AMG and it was the worst piece of crap car I have owned besides a 99 Pontiac Grand Am in terms of reliability.
The car instrument display failed,AC failed, leaked oil from the valve cover, broken motor mount,etc.
The car was only 5 year old!!!
I thought my car was a dud until I joined the Mercedes forums and noticed that all the problems i had was common enough that the forum had how-to stickies on repairing them DIY.
I can forgive a brand like Pontiac or Chevy for having issues like that since their cars are cheap and affordable, but not on a $50k car at the time.
In the E55 defense, it was a fast, beautiful car that got me noticed everywhere I went.
But like the article mentions that was the car only good traits.
Hence why I only drive cars with good reliability/warranties like my 2011 Lexus RX350 and 2014 KIA Optima SXL(I know odd couple in the garage)
This is my old 2002 Mercedes.
Beautiful on the outside, but a nightmare to own out of warranty like most German cars.
^^ everyone knows not to own a mercedes built from 1994-2006 stay away like the plague
One can actually give Lexus credit for that...and, to a lesser extent, Infiniti. When those two brands debuted in 1990, the German luxury-car industry had real Japanese competition for the first time. They were forced to cut costs.......and, in Mercedes' case, vehicle quality and solidness suffered.
^^ everyone knows not to own a mercedes built from 1994-2006 stay away like the plague
LOL. Lesson learned the hard way.
However, I still fell for a 2011 E350 4matic a couple years ago and still ended up with car that had a few small issues that was repair out of warranty.
Mostly cosmetic issues like defective wood grain trim and peeling covering on console vent.
It did however developed a small weeping leak where the transmission and drive-shalf meets, but Mercedes did not repair it saying that it was not serious enough of a leak.
Since the car was at the end of it warranty period, I decided to just let it go before the leak got worst most likely out of warranty with a repair bill of $4k+.
I traded it before the warranty was up at 50k miles and bought a new 2014 KIA Optima SXL loaded.
Again, Mercedes are nice looking cars but just about it.
Hell the 2014 KIA Optima SXL have more options than my E-class had like cooled seats,HID(halogen on the Mercedes), blind-spot monitoring,and real Nappa leather not MB-Tex vinyl, with a 10y/100k warranty.
Fool me once same on you, fool me twice...well.
No more German built cars for me.
Here is my old 2011 E-class.
Here my 2014 Optima SXL
As you can see, the Mercedes is still nice looking car but so is the KIA so the German automakers need to get their act together when KIA can make a car that is just as luxurious while being more reliable and covered by a 10 year warranty.
that kia interior well looks good- but how about the overall feel? you know rattles or wind noise?.
i have to say Kia/Hyundai have came a long way since last 5-6 years.
Originally Posted by carguy75
LOL. Lesson learned the hard way.
However, I still fell for a 2011 E350 4matic a couple years ago and still ended up with car that had a few small issues that was repair out of warranty.
Mostly cosmetic issues like defective wood grain trim and peeling covering on console vent.
It did however developed a small weeping leak where the transmission and drive-shalf meets, but Mercedes did not repair it saying that it was not serious enough of a leak.
Since the car was at the end of it warranty period, I decided to just let it go before the leak got worst most likely out of warranty with a repair bill of $4k+.
I traded it before the warranty was up at 50k miles and bought a new 2014 KIA Optima SXL loaded.
Again, Mercedes are nice looking cars but just about it.
Hell the 2014 KIA Optima SXL have more options than my E-class had like cooled seats,HID(halogen on the Mercedes), blind-spot monitoring,and real Nappa leather not MB-Tex vinyl, with a 10y/100k warranty.
Fool me once same on you, fool me twice...well.
No more German built cars for me.
Here is my old 2011 E-class.
Here my 2014 Optima SXL
As you can see, the Mercedes is still nice looking car but so is the KIA so the German automakers need to get their act together when KIA can make a car that is just as luxurious while being more reliable and covered by a 10 year warranty.
that kia interior well looks good- but how about the overall feel? you know rattles or wind noise?
There's several indicators the Kia is a class below in the interior, which is appropriate given its mission. Just having similar features doesn't mean you're at parity with cars a class above. That being said, the Optima gets a from me.
well Im sorry to hear that your more recent MB also had problems. I guess I should be thankful that my 09 C class has been bullet proof and I haven't been deterred from the brand. In fact, no other brand on the road makes me feel as special as I do when I am driving, even in my lowly C. At least there is improvement from your 2002 to your 2011. Just think what the new E class coming never year, it should also be bullet proof
well Im sorry to hear that your more recent MB also had problems. I guess I should be thankful that my 09 C class has been bullet proof and I haven't been deterred from the brand. In fact, no other brand on the road makes me feel as special as I do when I am driving, even in my lowly C. At least there is improvement from your 2002 to your 2011. Just think what the new E class coming never year, it should also be bullet proof
We currently have a BMW and an Audi and both have been problem free. They are late model (2014 and 2013) so the long term reliability is unknown. Based on my experience to date, I'd buy another of either brand.
that kia interior well looks good- but how about the overall feel? you know rattles or wind noise?.
i have to say Kia/Hyundai have came a long way since last 5-6 years.
Thank you.
I actually only went to the KIA dealership to only test drive a larger Cadenza, but noticed the turbo charged Optima.
Well, the Cadenza felt like the 2011 E-class, but the Optima was very nimble and handled like a real sports sedan so i chose the Optima and still do not regret it.
To be honest the Mercedes does have a more solid/heavier feel to it, especially when closing the doors.
The 2011 Mercedes I had rattled a bit from the rear deck area that happens when the rear deck subwoofer hit a certain frequency, but I solved it with felt tape placed in key areas.
did a how-to in the Mercedes forum about sound deadening the culprits. http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w212...ttle-fix.htmlI
So, the KIA and the 2011 Mercedes both have noise until felt taped.
The newer Mercedes models maybe better, but I am done trying to buy one since I told myself that the 2011 E-class models was better than the 2002 E-class models.
I am in no way saying that my KIA is a better overall car than the 2011 E-class, just reliable and have a great power-train warranty that overs the major components for 10years/100k miles.
The KIA basic warranty that covers everything including power-train is 5year/60k miles, so even if the KIA develop issues I will not have to come out of my pocket to fix anything major from up to 10 years.
My wife like the KIA more than the Mercedes, mainly because I had a Mercedes with MB-Tex which she could not stand in the summer since it did not have cooled seats.
However, she does not want to buy a KIA also hence why we bought the RX350.
My post is only about older German cars I have owned, so if the newer ones are better than all the better.
I still think that Mercedes are the one of the best looking cars on the road and sometimes I still get the urge to try out an E-class model again.
There's several indicators the Kia is a class below in the interior, which is appropriate given its mission. Just having similar features doesn't mean you're at parity with cars a class above. That being said, the Optima gets a from me.
So true.
The KIA interior looks good, but it does not hold a candle to the Mercedes interior in terms of looks and design.
However, the Mercedes I had did not have any damn options really besides navigation,back-up camera,heated front seats,Harman-Kardon sound system(which is the best!!!!), and all wheel drive.
The seat/trim were vinyl(MB-Tex).
The KIA Optima has heated seats front and rear,cooled front seats,back-up camera with parking senors, better gas mileage with more horsepower,folding power mirrors when doors are locked, real Nappa leather seats/trim, HID headlights/LED fog lamps.
So compared to my old 2011 Mercedes E350, the Optima is actually more luxurious option/performance wise.
Build quality however goes to Mercedes hand down.
Electronic quality goes to KIA.
Mechanical quality seems to be about equal with my vote going to KIA since they cover major components longer.
I'm surprised you didn't test drive a IS350 or GS350. Handling is completely superior to both the Kia and Mercedes with top notch reliability and quality. Maybe next time.
My experience over the past 4 years (all under 50k miles with full dealer history):
ML500 over 12 months: Trim issues, passenger multi-contour seat failed, leaking rear diff, leaking steering rack and noisy PAS pump.
CL63 AMG over 16 months: Failed starter battery and drivers dynamic multi-contour seat plus new engine under MB warranty with previous owner.
XF SV8 over 8 months: Rust on trunk lid & front arches, fuel door failed, gear selector failed, sunroof collapsed, keyless go worked intermittently.
BMW E93 335i M SPORT over 14 months: 2 x wastegates, 2 x turbos, fuel pump, leaking gearbox, leaking AC, failed comfort access handle, various squeaks, rattles and leaking roof all within three weeks of purchase from BMW. Utter junk!
My experience over the past 4 years (all under 50k miles with full dealer history):
ML500 over 12 months: Trim issues, passenger multi-contour seat failed, leaking rear diff, leaking steering rack and noisy PAS pump.
CL63 AMG over 16 months: Failed starter battery and drivers dynamic multi-contour seat plus new engine under MB warranty with previous owner.
XF SV8 over 8 months: Rust on trunk lid & front arches, fuel door failed, gear selector failed, sunroof collapsed, keyless go worked intermittently.
BMW E93 335i M SPORT over 14 months: 2 x wastegates, 2 x turbos, fuel pump, leaking gearbox, leaking AC, failed comfort access handle, various squeaks, rattles and leaking roof all within three weeks of purchase from BMW. Utter junk!
11-30-15, 04:38 PM
from me.
