spwolf

well, not really... this is only case when they coded for the test.... rest of them do everything possible to the vehicle and testing to make them appear as best possible, but they do not have two sets of software, one for testing and other for real world.

So for instance, Europeans tape over any gaps on the car, put slick tires, have special slick test roads, etc, etc... for testing.

spwolf

this is true... except that you will not see 4l/100km consumption as tested by EU... you will get 6l/100km and bet happy with it or 8l if you arent careful (still good).

Allen K

iTrader: (4)

http://www.wsj.com/articles/audi-con...dal-1443436979

2.1M Audis (worldwide) are a part of that 11M VW figure

This story isn't going away for a while

rxonmymind

This also affects some prominent people. Here locally Mr. Neillo a former Senator who happens to own the entire VW, Audi, BMW brand of dealerships was not exactly happy with these turn of events. Several(active) legislators own cars bought from Mr. Neillo. Suffice it to say the "boss" is not happy with VW right now.

JTMav

A piece in the Financial Times argues that the scandal is worse than that of Enron, the American energy giant whose colossal accounting fraud was revealed in 2001:

"There are reasons to believe that the fallout from this scandal will be as big as Enron, or even bigger. Most corporate scandals stem from negligence or the failure to come clean about corporate wrongdoing. Far fewer involve deliberate fraud and criminal intent."

The article offers seven reasons:

Higher air pollution actually costs lives.
VW has been at the head of a Europe-wide push for diesel, prodding governments to favour it through policy.
The fines and lawsuits looming for VW will most likely be larger than for Enron.
Enron's fraud hid massive losses, whereas "Volkswagen could get wiped out even though the company is financially healthy."
The scandal damages Germany's image more broadly and the image of other German automakers.
Other firms that have invested in the rise of diesel will be damaged even if they have not cheated in any way.
The scandal could taint the idea of using cleaner technology to mitigate against.

Stock is down another 8% and looks very weak.
JTMav

T0ked

iTrader: (2)

There's a reason no body agrees with you. Vehicles performing a few mpgs below the EPA rating or spewing a couple of percentages above its emission rating while not in ideal conditions is one thing. Having a separate engine program subroutine to run only during emission testing to lower results by 40x is a completely different matter.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Sums it up very well. Everyone is gaming the system to a certain degree (not just car manufacturers) by overstating performance of their products, and it is important to have realistic expectations. But VW took it to the next level of negligence that falls in the same category as some Chinese toys containing lead paint and similar hazardous products.

spwolf

yes, one thing is deliberate fraud and other is maximizing numbers within poorly written law.

Hopefully this new EU cycle will not leave loopholes such as being able to use slick track, tires, taping over the vehicle doors for aero, etc, etc.

Realistically, it should get around 10% worse than what currently EPA gets - that would make it pretty realistic and then people should be able to replicate the numbers with careful driving.

Poorly written laws also discourage development of technology that will help in real life mpg.

For instance, Denso is doing new AC in 2016 for unspecified Toyota (most likely) and it will have internal fan that will blow over internal components when engine is off... this will give cold air to the passengers while engine/AC compressor are off during traffic stop. It means that for short stops (4-5min?) on traffic lights, engine can truly be off - for instance, right now during summer, smart/stop systems are not effective almost at all because AC keeps running the engine due to outside temps.

Right now, EU test does not use AC at all, meaning that this wont increase mpg in test results, while it will massively increase them in real life. For a short time, regular car will be able to operate AC like hybrids are doing today.

roadbike56

Yes, Even if VW uses the Pharma/Biotek model of delaying payment of fines and law suit agreements they may not have the income because their entire product line is now tainted from this scandal. One of the financial articles stated that the US fines would be calculated to allow VW to stay in business. That indicates to me that there is a real possibility that VW may go under from this. I didn't think so initially, but now, not so sure. Even if they survive, it will be years maybe decades before they regain their power in the auto industry.

spwolf

I am just reading on differences between old NEDC (EU) and new WLTP already completed 99%, and to be introduced by 2017:
http://www.theicct.org/sites/default...U_20141029.pdf

It is a joke. For diesel vehicles, fuel economy (and CO2 emissions) will stay the same. 3cly turbo's and hybrids are going to lose 10% mpg officially since there is a lot less waiting during trafic stops in test.

This is not accounting for slick tires and taking off wing mirrors they do right now, but nevertheless, this is just European auto industry patting themselves on the back and doing everything the same as before.

What a joke.

spwolf

VW had 12 billion profit last year... fining them 18 billion (maximum charge) will not do anything to VW at all. They probably have cash reserves that can upfront pay all of the costs in excess of 30 billion right now.

JessePS

It will be interesting to see how everything falls into place now. It sucks for people trying to sell their used VW. I am happy that diesels did not catch on in North America.

My0gr81

I am not a tree hugger,. I, and I think a lot of people would line up to buy a TDI based VW if it comes at a premium discount. If I owned one, I would resist the trip to get it neutered unless they refuse to register it if not fixed (some jurisdictions with mandatory emission requirements).

jadu

iTrader: (42)

T0ked, in terms of programming, you have basically reiterated what bitkahuna has stated. The separate engine program subroutine IS the code that is "coded to the test". They are gaming the system because not all states have strict smog regulations. Cali, for example, did require a dyno tailpipe sniffer test for your smog check, and it was only recently that they removed this test and relyed on the data coming from the ECU and OBD2 port. The problem is, no one validated this and VW is gaming the system as this was left up the manufacturer (from my understanding) to validate and verify that OBD2 port data values vs. the tailpipe sniffer emissions data values.

jadu

iTrader: (42)

+1. I am also curious to see what happens