Volkswagen diesel scandal
#181
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So for instance, Europeans tape over any gaps on the car, put slick tires, have special slick test roads, etc, etc... for testing.
#182
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Diesel lobby in Europe is quite powerful so whole CO2 thing is just the perfect deception. European manufacturers invested billions into diesel tech well before any pollution consciousness caught up and by the time it did there was no way to improve diesel emissions to match gasoline.
Whole this VW is a great scandal but what's a real horror story is every diesel sold falls apart once it reaches 100,000-150,000km At that point any DPF, EGR, you name it, is simply done and it allows the car to emit horrendous amount of exhaust gases. Even the car itself suffers as it gets clogged with sludge and therefore efficiency drops down quite drastically. In other word go ahead and buy BMW Ultra diesel which claims 4l per 100km consumption, yeah that's great but keep in mind two things: It can achieve this efficiency only due to laid back emissions regulations and it remains true for the first 50,000km. After that it gradually consumes more and more as the km rack up.
Whole this VW is a great scandal but what's a real horror story is every diesel sold falls apart once it reaches 100,000-150,000km At that point any DPF, EGR, you name it, is simply done and it allows the car to emit horrendous amount of exhaust gases. Even the car itself suffers as it gets clogged with sludge and therefore efficiency drops down quite drastically. In other word go ahead and buy BMW Ultra diesel which claims 4l per 100km consumption, yeah that's great but keep in mind two things: It can achieve this efficiency only due to laid back emissions regulations and it remains true for the first 50,000km. After that it gradually consumes more and more as the km rack up.
#183
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http://www.wsj.com/articles/audi-con...dal-1443436979
2.1M Audis (worldwide) are a part of that 11M VW figure
This story isn't going away for a while
2.1M Audis (worldwide) are a part of that 11M VW figure
This story isn't going away for a while
#184
Lexus Test Driver
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This also affects some prominent people. Here locally Mr. Neillo a former Senator who happens to own the entire VW, Audi, BMW brand of dealerships was not exactly happy with these turn of events. Several(active) legislators own cars bought from Mr. Neillo. Suffice it to say the "boss" is not happy with VW right now.
#185
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A piece in the Financial Times argues that the scandal is worse than that of Enron, the American energy giant whose colossal accounting fraud was revealed in 2001:
"There are reasons to believe that the fallout from this scandal will be as big as Enron, or even bigger. Most corporate scandals stem from negligence or the failure to come clean about corporate wrongdoing. Far fewer involve deliberate fraud and criminal intent."
The article offers seven reasons:
Higher air pollution actually costs lives.
VW has been at the head of a Europe-wide push for diesel, prodding governments to favour it through policy.
The fines and lawsuits looming for VW will most likely be larger than for Enron.
Enron's fraud hid massive losses, whereas "Volkswagen could get wiped out even though the company is financially healthy."
The scandal damages Germany's image more broadly and the image of other German automakers.
Other firms that have invested in the rise of diesel will be damaged even if they have not cheated in any way.
The scandal could taint the idea of using cleaner technology to mitigate against.
Stock is down another 8% and looks very weak.
JTMav
"There are reasons to believe that the fallout from this scandal will be as big as Enron, or even bigger. Most corporate scandals stem from negligence or the failure to come clean about corporate wrongdoing. Far fewer involve deliberate fraud and criminal intent."
The article offers seven reasons:
Higher air pollution actually costs lives.
VW has been at the head of a Europe-wide push for diesel, prodding governments to favour it through policy.
The fines and lawsuits looming for VW will most likely be larger than for Enron.
Enron's fraud hid massive losses, whereas "Volkswagen could get wiped out even though the company is financially healthy."
The scandal damages Germany's image more broadly and the image of other German automakers.
Other firms that have invested in the rise of diesel will be damaged even if they have not cheated in any way.
The scandal could taint the idea of using cleaner technology to mitigate against.
Stock is down another 8% and looks very weak.
JTMav
#186
Lexus Champion
iTrader: (2)
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There's a reason no body agrees with you. Vehicles performing a few mpgs below the EPA rating or spewing a couple of percentages above its emission rating while not in ideal conditions is one thing. Having a separate engine program subroutine to run only during emission testing to lower results by 40x is a completely different matter.
#187
Lexus Champion
iTrader: (3)
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There's a reason no body agrees with you. Vehicles performing a few mpgs below the EPA rating or spewing a couple of percentages above its emission rating while not in ideal conditions is one thing. Having a separate engine program subroutine to run only during emission testing to lower results by 40x is a completely different matter.
#188
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There's a reason no body agrees with you. Vehicles performing a few mpgs below the EPA rating or spewing a couple of percentages above its emission rating while not in ideal conditions is one thing. Having a separate engine program subroutine to run only during emission testing to lower results by 40x is a completely different matter.
Hopefully this new EU cycle will not leave loopholes such as being able to use slick track, tires, taping over the vehicle doors for aero, etc, etc.
Realistically, it should get around 10% worse than what currently EPA gets - that would make it pretty realistic and then people should be able to replicate the numbers with careful driving.
Poorly written laws also discourage development of technology that will help in real life mpg.
For instance, Denso is doing new AC in 2016 for unspecified Toyota (most likely) and it will have internal fan that will blow over internal components when engine is off... this will give cold air to the passengers while engine/AC compressor are off during traffic stop. It means that for short stops (4-5min?) on traffic lights, engine can truly be off - for instance, right now during summer, smart/stop systems are not effective almost at all because AC keeps running the engine due to outside temps.
Right now, EU test does not use AC at all, meaning that this wont increase mpg in test results, while it will massively increase them in real life. For a short time, regular car will be able to operate AC like hybrids are doing today.
#189
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A piece in the Financial Times argues that the scandal is worse than that of Enron, the American energy giant whose colossal accounting fraud was revealed in 2001:
"There are reasons to believe that the fallout from this scandal will be as big as Enron, or even bigger. Most corporate scandals stem from negligence or the failure to come clean about corporate wrongdoing. Far fewer involve deliberate fraud and criminal intent."
The article offers seven reasons:
Higher air pollution actually costs lives.
VW has been at the head of a Europe-wide push for diesel, prodding governments to favour it through policy.
The fines and lawsuits looming for VW will most likely be larger than for Enron.
Enron's fraud hid massive losses, whereas "Volkswagen could get wiped out even though the company is financially healthy."
The scandal damages Germany's image more broadly and the image of other German automakers.
Other firms that have invested in the rise of diesel will be damaged even if they have not cheated in any way.
The scandal could taint the idea of using cleaner technology to mitigate against.
Stock is down another 8% and looks very weak.
JTMav
"There are reasons to believe that the fallout from this scandal will be as big as Enron, or even bigger. Most corporate scandals stem from negligence or the failure to come clean about corporate wrongdoing. Far fewer involve deliberate fraud and criminal intent."
The article offers seven reasons:
Higher air pollution actually costs lives.
VW has been at the head of a Europe-wide push for diesel, prodding governments to favour it through policy.
The fines and lawsuits looming for VW will most likely be larger than for Enron.
Enron's fraud hid massive losses, whereas "Volkswagen could get wiped out even though the company is financially healthy."
The scandal damages Germany's image more broadly and the image of other German automakers.
Other firms that have invested in the rise of diesel will be damaged even if they have not cheated in any way.
The scandal could taint the idea of using cleaner technology to mitigate against.
Stock is down another 8% and looks very weak.
JTMav
#190
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I am just reading on differences between old NEDC (EU) and new WLTP already completed 99%, and to be introduced by 2017:
http://www.theicct.org/sites/default...U_20141029.pdf
It is a joke. For diesel vehicles, fuel economy (and CO2 emissions) will stay the same. 3cly turbo's and hybrids are going to lose 10% mpg officially since there is a lot less waiting during trafic stops in test.
This is not accounting for slick tires and taking off wing mirrors they do right now, but nevertheless, this is just European auto industry patting themselves on the back and doing everything the same as before.
What a joke.
http://www.theicct.org/sites/default...U_20141029.pdf
It is a joke. For diesel vehicles, fuel economy (and CO2 emissions) will stay the same. 3cly turbo's and hybrids are going to lose 10% mpg officially since there is a lot less waiting during trafic stops in test.
This is not accounting for slick tires and taking off wing mirrors they do right now, but nevertheless, this is just European auto industry patting themselves on the back and doing everything the same as before.
What a joke.
#191
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Yes, Even if VW uses the Pharma/Biotek model of delaying payment of fines and law suit agreements they may not have the income because their entire product line is now tainted from this scandal. One of the financial articles stated that the US fines would be calculated to allow VW to stay in business. That indicates to me that there is a real possibility that VW may go under from this. I didn't think so initially, but now, not so sure. Even if they survive, it will be years maybe decades before they regain their power in the auto industry.
#192
Lexus Test Driver
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It will be interesting to see how everything falls into place now. It sucks for people trying to sell their used VW. I am happy that diesels did not catch on in North America.
#193
Lexus Test Driver
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I am not a tree hugger,. I, and I think a lot of people would line up to buy a TDI based VW if it comes at a premium discount. If I owned one, I would resist the trip to get it neutered unless they refuse to register it if not fixed (some jurisdictions with mandatory emission requirements).
#194
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There's a reason no body agrees with you. Vehicles performing a few mpgs below the EPA rating or spewing a couple of percentages above its emission rating while not in ideal conditions is one thing. Having a separate engine program subroutine to run only during emission testing to lower results by 40x is a completely different matter.