peteharvey

Yes, once they've made a name for themselves, it becomes a loyalty thing, as the mass public who know little about motor cars purchase mostly by name.
Because they have such a good name, they are occasionally able to get away with murder, using terrible styling or terrible engines.
However, if E Class and 5 Series kept the negativity up, soon they would lose their name, and lose their reputation.

IMO, Lexus has made a similar name for itself with the RX and ES.
The RX and even what I thought was a very bland 2013-16 6ES still sold quite well despite what I thought was very ordinary styling.
I find that Corolla engines are horribly harsh, with a overtly firm ride, yet they are getting away with blue murder the way they are selling.

Unfortunately, I find that both LS and GS have been inconsistent performers, hence they haven't really made a name for themselves.
The current LS is selling way too long.
The four generations of GS's I've known, I'd have to say that 3GS was the odd man out, not only with styling, compromised interior space, but with a very soft suspension; the other three generations have a degree of sportiness, or sports oriented luxury...

Toys4RJill

I really don't know how anyone can really say that the Lexus ES and the MB E-Class are in the same segment, Most people would not even cross shop them. I will say that I am sure there are some people that will not be able to tell the difference or perhaps will like or find the ES as the better car. But MSRP does not lie, the ES starts are $38,100 while the E-Class starts at $52,150 For what its worth, the ES has a standard V6 while one is currently stuck with a Turbo 4 banger..

The ES350 was designed for the Lincoln MKZ, Cadillac DTS, and Toyota Avalon buyer. Best way I can put it forth, the ES is a luxury car while the E-class is a prestige car.

What I do find interesting is about Lexus is that the starting price gap of the Lexus LS460 is closer to the starting price of the E-class than it is to the S-class. Lexus usually undercuts the starting MSRP of higher end cars compared to the competition, the GS starts about $7K less than a E-class Mercedes.

Toys4RJill

Whoa, carefully there.

The GS and LS do have a long history and have made quite the name for themselves.

peteharvey

RX is market leader. Over the years, RX has stymied its German competitors; all Germans can say is that RX is cheaper.
ES sells well, but there is no direct competitor. However, people continually point to its lower entry price point.
LS did well, but very long in the tooth now.
GS has not had huge volume due to Lexus' own front drive ES above.

Toys4RJill

The Lincoln MKZ and Toyota's Avalon are the main competitors for the Lexus ES350. I would say Buick Lacrosse but the starting MSRP points it to an Avalon competitor more so than a ES one.Yes, we all get that. Nobody is disputing it.

peteharvey

But the RX is the Lexus that leaves its competitors like M/GLE Class & X5 consistently behind for dead!

chromedome

The ES and FWD A6 are direct competitors whereas the E-class and 5-series are a segment above. In most markets, cheaper FWD luxury/premium/whatever sedans are good enough. Tradition forces Mercedes and BMW to keep making large RWD sedans but I think they could also sell large FWD sedans by the boatload, if they were brave enough.

Toys4RJill

The RX does not really compete with the GLE, the starting MSRP of an RX is $10,100 lower than a GLE. The X5 starts at $13K more.

The RX is a direct competitor for the Cadillac XT5, Lincoln MKX, Buick Envison (sort of),

Toys4RJill

Agreed, however Lexus builds the ES into the development of the Camry/RX/Sienna/Highlander/Avalon platforms. So its huge profit for Lexus whereas Mercedes sells a ton of E-Class worldwide. If the E-Class started at $39K like the ES, it would sell in much higher numbers. I don't think the whole FWD or RWD matters, except its more profitable to make it FWD.

chromedome

Call me crazy but I like FWD designs by Benz and BMW like the B-class and 2-series Active Tourer. RWD designs sell mainly on prestige and tradition, I don't think the average buyer realizes the pros and cons of having the rear wheels driven. The ES sells for cheap precisely because it's a jumbo Camry whereas you can't shrink an RWD platform to make a cheap car because of all the gubbins that run across the body. Just look at the BMW 1-series hatch - it's not cheap and has little space inside but hey, it's RWD

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

^^^ on a related note, i just saw on motorweek that the newest bmw x1 is a FWD-based (mini-derived) platform (although only sold in x-drive [awd] setup right now).

SW17LS

Nobody is disputing the LS is long in the tooth at this point, but to say it hasn't made a name for itself is silly. The LS has had a bigger impact on the luxury car market than probably any other single product. Lexus' entire existence is because of the LS, and for many years it on and off ruled the segment. The LS has a big reputation, and the fact that it still outsells the much newer A8 and XJ and isn't that far off of the all new 7 is a testament to that reputation. That reputation right now frankly is the only reason anybody buy an LS.

To say the LS has never made a name for itself is to demonstrate a total lack of knowledge about the luxury car space. The GS I would agree with you.

On the topic of the E300, I did extensively test drive one today. It was a low equipped model, about $62k which seems to be what dealers here have in stock. MB Tex interior, basic gauges. The interior is nice, its not amazing. I would still say the GS is nicer inside. Higher spec E's will be better, but remember that $62k E300 is already optioned like a totally loaded Luxury package GS...and in that comparison the GS easily wins. A E spec'ed inside like I would want would be over $72k. Space is good, tight in the back but thin well molded seatbacks improve rear seat room over the GS. I really like the ambient lighting, very special.

Ride and drive. I thought the car rode quite well, a little better than the GS with AVS. Very nimble, felt very light on its feet and handled quite well. I would say rode better than the GS not as well as the LS. Quietness I would say very similar to the GS, not as quiet as the LS. Same sort of issue with the GS, good at blocking out exterior noise, wind noise very low, but road noise comes through. Car had Pirelli Cinturato P7 which is what I have on the LS, very quiet tires.

Now the engine. Let me say...what a shame this car has this 4cyl engine. if this had a V6 or an I6 it would really be far and away the winner in the class. The pep is there, it doesn't feel underpowered and in normal driving might even feel a little peppier than the NA V6, but the engine does not sound or feel especially refined or luxurious. From startup to throttle, it sounds like what it is, a small 4cyl motor. Buzzy at times, a fine entry engine, but I would not want the car with this motor...

All in all, The E would still likely be last on my list in this segment, which it was before the refresh just for different reasons.

peteharvey

Models are never exactly the same price.
How similar does the price have to be to be similar?
The defenders always say that such a model is too much cheaper, so naturally sales are higher - and so they are.
Eg RX sells 108,000 units last year leaving the competition behind for dead, not just last year, but year after year - a feat that no other Lexus model like the ES, LS and GS have managed to emulate.

Note how despite the RX's class leading sales, my bottom line is that they are all good, but in different ways?
Despite the RX's class leading sales, I don't take that to mean that the RX is better than the competition at all, because the sales could be from a lower price.

Anyhow, to compensate for the variation in individual model prices, another way of looking at it is total sales of all models added together.
However, the defenders don't like total sales, because total sales can be very high with little profitability per model on the cheaper models eg Corollas etc.

Hence, we then move onto annual revenue, less expenses, hence net profits.
However, just because one netted 10 million dollars last year, doesn't mean one's wealth is on par with Bill Gates who may have only netted $200k last year.

That's when we move onto assets, liabilities and equity!
Assets [what you own], less liabilities [what you owe], equals equity [net wealth].

Presently, TMC has net equity of US$166 billion.
Daimler AG has a net equity of only US$59 billion.

However, the defenders are still not happy; just because you're worth $166 billion doesn't mean quality?
One might just be wealthy from selling cheap low quality cars.

That's when we move onto the subject of "compromise".
The way God made it, life is a compromise - the more we have of A, the less we have of B; the total energy in the universe always remains the same.
For quality, cars like the E Class etc, are pretty much equal, with different compromises.
Models and competitors are all good, but in different ways, with different levels of compromises.

What I am basically trying to say, is that despite sales, despite profitability, and despite wealth etc, these cars like E, 5, A6 and GS etc, are all pretty good, but in different ways.
I see too many people trying to argue which is better, when they are all equally good, but in different ways.
To me, as long as you're in a midsize luxo, you're a winner.

It's just a matter of finding a car with the right set of compromises for the individual.

Time
Technology progresses over time, such that a new model will always be superior to the old model.

In the world of photography, they used to have the great Canon-Nikon wars.
Today, photographers understand that Canon and Nikon are equal, but in different ways.
If you do happen to see that a Nikon is superior to a Canon, or vice versa, it all depends on the stage of their model cycle.
A new Canon model will be better than a Nikon model from two years ago.

So it is with cars.
The new E Class may be leading in technology now, but the 2019 GS will be leading in technology later.
Each model will take turns in leadership through time, beginning with E Class in 2016, then to 5 in 2017, to A6 in 2018 and GS in 2019...

.

SW17LS

I agree that just because a price spread may be $10k doesn't mean that consumers aren't cross shopping these cars. For instance when I shopped for my 03 ES I considered the more expensive GS, as well as the 5 and E, and decided at that time that the less expensive ES was the better choice for me. Again in 2010 I ultimately decided on the ES, but cross shopped the GS, 5 and E even though they would have been considerably more. Then in 2012, I went in planning on replacing the car with another ES but cross shopped the higher end cars again and that time I chose to make that move. Then in 2015, I went from being a $60k midsize buyer to buying an $80k flagship luxury car. Could I go back down? I could, people certainly do.

Relative prices are less important in the luxury space than elsewhere in the industry. If a consumer can afford a $50k ES, they can afford a $60k GS or $70k E Class. Especially with leasing the differences are less distinct, the lease price difference between an ES and a GS or E Class may be $100 a month or less. For me when I upgraded to the GS I paid $70 more a month than the ES, and the E and 5 were right there too.

The average income for an ES buyer is over $120k, if you have income of $10,000 per month $100 more per month represents 1% of your monthly income. Hence...if ES lessors want a GS or E Class or 5 Series...they are accessible.

peteharvey

When we examine LS sales, it sell pretty much like S Class; actually LS sells better than S Class, but just as well since the LS is cheaper.
So the LS has made a name for itself in that sense.
However, I was referring to how well the LS sells relative to the RX.

S Class and LS sales go up and down; sometimes leading, but also sometimes trailing the competition.
However, RX has quite fantastic sales.
RX seems to never trail the competition!
RX seems to ambush the competition right to the end of its model life.
I don't know how long RX can keep that feat up for...