SW17LS

This is the point I was trying to make, such as my point about my own buying history. We talk about here for instance the shift away from sedans to SUVs, well in order for someone to shop for an SUV over a sedan...they have to cross shop SUVs and sedans. So its all well and good for us to sit here and have these conversations about what cars compete with what, but the reality is buyers are looking at a wide and sometimes eclectic mixture of vehicles when they make a buying decision. They're looking at midsized cars, full-sized cars, SUVs, etc.

Theres also a difference between being "worried about money" and being "worried about money". Wanting to stay in a certain price segment and not being capable of going above that are different things.

The flaw in that logic is that all of these cars existed and sold very well in the 90s/early 2000s when Cadillac was still producing the sorts of cars you're talking about. In fact, in a lot of ways the ES, GS, LS and E Class sold better then than they do now alongside those Cadillacs.

My dad was a Lincoln and Cadillac driver in the 90s, moved to Lexus in 1998. He had a 1990 Lincoln Continental and a 1995 Cadillac STS, he considered the LS400 both times but didn't buy it largely because it was foreign and he did a lot of business with labor unions and didn't like the optics. What made him finally get the Lexus was quality, not that Cadillac or Lincoln no longer offered what he wanted in a vehicle from a comfort and driving dynamic perspective, it was just that the Lexus was a much higher quality, better built, more refined car.

At that time the E Class did not appeal to him at all because it was too firm and teutonic, stark inside. Too small. Same with a 5 Series. He would have been interested in an S Class or 7 Series, but they were more expensive and he was concerned about the optics of them being too expensive looking (he was in industrial sales).

If he were alive today he would like the way the E Class drove, but he would have an issue with it being too small. Same with the 5 Series and GS.

So the shift away from Cadillac and Lincoln wasn't because they stopped making what was a comfortable, nice riding car, it was because they just made a crappy car.

LexBob2

There is a BIG difference between not being able to afford something and just not wanting to spend the money on it.

SW17LS

Exactly. I would venture to say that pretty much everybody here would be capable of going and getting a $115,000 S550. You have people in the market that max out what they can buy sure, but by and large you'll find that most buyers are spending well under what they theoretically COULD spend. Which is how people make jumps from the ES to an E Class or back again

mmarshall

Agreed. Just because one has assets in the bank doesn't mean that one should use them on non-critical things. I'm a firm believer in leaving a big cushion for emergencies or unexpected expenses.....although, in today's record-low interest-rate environment, you certainly won't make much on those savings.

Nevertheless, with the Verano going out of production next year (American sales stop in October), I myself may (?) be looking at something more upscale next time. Though I owned an IS300 for 5 years, I haven't had what I'd call a luxury-grade car since the early 1970s, when I was in college. The new Lacrosse and Lincoln MKZ interest me, but there are several things about them already that I don't like.

Toys4RJill

If the Verano has the reliability that CR and everyone is clamouring that it is supposed to have, why not keep it 10-15 years?

mmarshall

Acording to CR, 2012 models (the one I have) started out shaky in reliability, but then quickly improved to much better than average....and have remained so. Later 2013, 2014, and 2015 models, however, were average (I don't know why the drop) and have remained there ever since.

You may have a point about keeping a reliable car. But, on the other hand, the Verano is a little small if I keep getting leg injuries like what recently happened with my knee, and have to get in or out with a brace or cast. (and, in my past, I've also broken both feet and sprained the other knee). Though I'm recovering very well from this latest injury (I plan to get back to auto reviews next week) , I'm not a spring chicken any more, and future injuries are a still possibility, though experience has taught me to be very careful walking and up/down stairs. I may (?) need something later on with more room than a Verano.

And, of course, let's be honest. Even the much-better-than-average 2012 Verano, good as it is, is not likely to be any more reliable than a typical Corolla. Corollas and Honda Civics wrote the book on reliability. You aren't going to keep your Corolla 10-15 years, are you?

mmarshall

No arguments there. Compared to the original LS400, the Caddies and Lincolns of that era, though nice-riding (better-riding, IMO, than the Caddy/Lincoln sedans of today, because the suspensions and tires were softer), were, nevertheless, quality-wise, borderline junk.

So your dad didn't like the early-90s E-Class interior? Too stark for him? While I've heard those comments before about Teutonic starkness in that era, it was otherwise difficult to criticize those M-B products built before the mid-90s, when Lexus/Infiniti competition started to force compromises, to save costs, in the way M-B products were designed and built. Up to the mid-90s or so, M-B products were like tanks.

Toys4RJill

The Corolla will probably be kept for 10 years, we have three other cars and the Matrix from 2009 will probably be the first to go. We have no payments on anything and are not looking either.

peteharvey

Models are never exactly the same price.
As long as they're in a similar ball park for price, they are comparable for sales.

Historically, the E Class has been a solid seller, being able to maintain its class leading sales from the start of its model cycle, all the way to the end of its model cycle [similar to the RX].
An RX is an even better seller, because the RX is able to maintain its strong sales from the start to the end of its model cycle, but the RX is able to maintain a much greater buffer to its next nearest rival.
Look at Canon [cameras] - Canon sells more cameras than its entire competition added together!
E Class, RX and in particular, Canon has a loyalty/following as mentioned by Rominl.
However, it should be reminded that in the world of photography, despite Canon's sales, it is still well understood that Canon and Nikon are equals in quality, but in different ways.

In a similar way, despite E Class' class leading sales, it doesn't mean that rivals like 5 Series, A6 & GS are hopeless cars.
They are all good cars, but in different ways.
Photography is a compromise.
Car design is also a compromise.
The more one has of A, the less one will have of B.
Pick one that best suits your needs, wants and tastes, and enjoy...
.

LexBob2

I was just addressing the general assumption when someone says so and so probably can't afford a particular brand/model.

Sulu

The Mercedes-Benz E-Class sedans sell for 2 reasons:

1. They are Mercedes-Benz cars. MB has history behind it, tracing back to Gottlieb Daimler and Karl Benz, the 2 fathers of the modern motocar. Because of this history, when you ask anyone, even someone who knows nothing about cars (other than the fact that they have 5 wheels -- 4 tires and a steering wheel), they will know Mercedes-Benz.
2. It is an E-Class. The E-Class is arguably the oldest luxury car, tracing its roots back more than 60 years to the first MB "Ponton" 180 of 1953. The E-Class has a greater legacy than the S-Class. The E-Class is Mercedes-Benz.

peteharvey

Yes, the E Class must win the award not just for the longest history, but also the most consistent performance.

The E Class deserves its heritage & its reputation.

I almost bought an E Class three times myself.

But like I say, don't just start trading in your 535i's, A6's & GS350's...
.

Aron9000

As a two time Cadillac owner(I owned the old RWD body on frame barges, no Northstar for me), those old school cars were very reliable, but hardly state of the art, even for the 90's. After some time on the Cadillac boards, I decided I wanted nothing to do with a 90's/00's Cadillac considering how trouble prone, hard to work on, and expensive to fix they were. The whole way those Northstar cars were designed, if you had something fail, you had to take half the car apart to get to it and fix it. Which wouldn't be a big deal, if they never broke, but that wasn't the case. I still contend that people who might have bought a Cadillac in the past now mostly buy Benz and Lexus.

I agree part of the shift away from Cadillac was too many people were burned by them back in the 80's/90's/early 00's. I still think that's a big part of why they are struggling to sell today, too many previous owners with a bad taste in their mouth. Polarizing styling and the firmer ride were other contributors that drove away their traditional customer base as well.

SW17LS

When I say "crappy car" I'm not really talking about reliability, I'm talking about build quality, interior quality. The RWD BOF Cadillacs were just as big offenders in that regard, even more so. His 95 STS had pretty poor build quality, as in panels weren't installed well, gaps inconsistent, but material quality was quite good, not something you can say about those 90s RWD Cadillacs. Plastic crap, fake wood, stitching pressed into vinyl. Terrible. compare it to an early 90s LS400 or BMW/ Benz there is no comparison.

Their if customer was gone long before they shifted to firmer driving characteristics.

Sulu

That is just your opinion.