2015 Luxury Sales Battle Review
02-17-16, 10:58 PM
#61
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Off topic, but the current F11 spawns are quite toned down, hence why the competitors have coming in swinging and winning. GS and CTS knocked the crowned king quite hard.
However regardless of the complaining the articles the videos that all say BMW`s current 5 series has lost its way by unforgettably using the chassis from the 7 series its still selling quite well. Goes to show the industry might not have to worry if they sway from their stereotypes. The CTS, which was the second coming of the E39, was being sold with tons of factory incentives cause caddy could not move them. GS was not that bad, but Lexus really could not attract that many BMW owners.
In regards to the E and Mercedes models in generals, they are not tuned for performance by any means if you need handling.
The plebian E series is ugly (the upcoming version is polar opposite). MB had to stuff the trunk full of insane lease deals and trunk money to move the pre-refresh. Then post refresh (which was the biggest plastic surgery done on a MY) sold poor as well. The only talkable unit was the AMG version, which was brute, but would not take a corner for its life.
If you have had any seat time with the current CAMG you`ll find it trying to hard to be both a luxury cruiser but also sporty. Its not working, but the interior minus the nav display is out of this world.
Wtih MB, they just have realized the whole pay to play idea BMW has been using for a while. If you want to buy a 5 series you can get the badge only model (bare bones n20i 528i), get some added grunt in w/ 535i or full monty without the price tag wih the 550i, or full monty m5.
Regardless of the normal 5 you can go M sport with suspension addons, engine addons
AMG is launching AMG Sport etc to do the same, but its not there yet. The only way to get there at least for the short term is AMG versions only
Until then BMW is still much more of a focused performance brand
However regardless of the complaining the articles the videos that all say BMW`s current 5 series has lost its way by unforgettably using the chassis from the 7 series its still selling quite well. Goes to show the industry might not have to worry if they sway from their stereotypes. The CTS, which was the second coming of the E39, was being sold with tons of factory incentives cause caddy could not move them. GS was not that bad, but Lexus really could not attract that many BMW owners.
In regards to the E and Mercedes models in generals, they are not tuned for performance by any means if you need handling.
The plebian E series is ugly (the upcoming version is polar opposite). MB had to stuff the trunk full of insane lease deals and trunk money to move the pre-refresh. Then post refresh (which was the biggest plastic surgery done on a MY) sold poor as well. The only talkable unit was the AMG version, which was brute, but would not take a corner for its life.
If you have had any seat time with the current CAMG you`ll find it trying to hard to be both a luxury cruiser but also sporty. Its not working, but the interior minus the nav display is out of this world.
Wtih MB, they just have realized the whole pay to play idea BMW has been using for a while. If you want to buy a 5 series you can get the badge only model (bare bones n20i 528i), get some added grunt in w/ 535i or full monty without the price tag wih the 550i, or full monty m5.
Regardless of the normal 5 you can go M sport with suspension addons, engine addons
AMG is launching AMG Sport etc to do the same, but its not there yet. The only way to get there at least for the short term is AMG versions only
Until then BMW is still much more of a focused performance brand
Audi, Mercedes Benz and Toyota competing in world class racing leagues relentlessly.When was the last time you heard BMW race in anything other than 24 hour Nurburgring and DTM?
If selling M3/4 and M sport part makes BMW the most performance focused brand, everyone including Ferrari should stop racing and sell 40K car/SUV with performance parts. They will have better profit margin.
Back in the day when only exotic brands made dedicated sports cars, mainstream luxury can get away with having a specialty car by adding more power and grip to their core models. Now BMW is the only one without a specialty car, it's not the most performance focused.
We can disagree on what's performance focused what's not, but BMW has no dedicated performance model is a fact.
Edit: FYI, BMW claimed itself i8 "its tech line".
Edit2: Let's stop derailing the thread.
Last edited by cino; 02-17-16 at 11:15 PM. Reason: more 2c
02-17-16, 11:18 PM
#62
Off topic, but the current F11 spawns are quite toned down, hence why the competitors have coming in swinging and winning. GS and CTS knocked the crowned king quite hard.
However regardless of the complaining the articles the videos that all say BMW`s current 5 series has lost its way by unforgettably using the chassis from the 7 series its still selling quite well. Goes to show the industry might not have to worry if they sway from their stereotypes. The CTS, which was the second coming of the E39, was being sold with tons of factory incentives cause caddy could not move them. GS was not that bad, but Lexus really could not attract that many BMW owners.
In regards to the E and Mercedes models in generals, they are not tuned for performance by any means if you need handling.
The plebian E series is ugly (the upcoming version is polar opposite). MB had to stuff the trunk full of insane lease deals and trunk money to move the pre-refresh. Then post refresh (which was the biggest plastic surgery done on a MY) sold poor as well. The only talkable unit was the AMG version, which was brute, but would not take a corner for its life.
If you have had any seat time with the current CAMG you`ll find it trying to hard to be both a luxury cruiser but also sporty. Its not working, but the interior minus the nav display is out of this world.
Wtih MB, they just have realized the whole pay to play idea BMW has been using for a while. If you want to buy a 5 series you can get the badge only model (bare bones n20i 528i), get some added grunt in w/ 535i or full monty without the price tag wih the 550i, or full monty m5.
Regardless of the normal 5 you can go M sport with suspension addons, engine addons
AMG is launching AMG Sport etc to do the same, but its not there yet. The only way to get there at least for the short term is AMG versions only
Until then BMW is still much more of a focused performance brand
However regardless of the complaining the articles the videos that all say BMW`s current 5 series has lost its way by unforgettably using the chassis from the 7 series its still selling quite well. Goes to show the industry might not have to worry if they sway from their stereotypes. The CTS, which was the second coming of the E39, was being sold with tons of factory incentives cause caddy could not move them. GS was not that bad, but Lexus really could not attract that many BMW owners.
In regards to the E and Mercedes models in generals, they are not tuned for performance by any means if you need handling.
The plebian E series is ugly (the upcoming version is polar opposite). MB had to stuff the trunk full of insane lease deals and trunk money to move the pre-refresh. Then post refresh (which was the biggest plastic surgery done on a MY) sold poor as well. The only talkable unit was the AMG version, which was brute, but would not take a corner for its life.
If you have had any seat time with the current CAMG you`ll find it trying to hard to be both a luxury cruiser but also sporty. Its not working, but the interior minus the nav display is out of this world.
Wtih MB, they just have realized the whole pay to play idea BMW has been using for a while. If you want to buy a 5 series you can get the badge only model (bare bones n20i 528i), get some added grunt in w/ 535i or full monty without the price tag wih the 550i, or full monty m5.
Regardless of the normal 5 you can go M sport with suspension addons, engine addons
AMG is launching AMG Sport etc to do the same, but its not there yet. The only way to get there at least for the short term is AMG versions only
Until then BMW is still much more of a focused performance brand
BMW is no longer performance focused, but mass market sales focused, hence their cars are bigger, heavier, and less well damped.
It is actually Lexus who is becoming more performance focused.
02-18-16, 12:19 AM
#63
Lead Lap
"Much more". The only thing helping BMW paying off the development cost is their bland mobiles. They spend those on R&D a go-fast variation of their bland mobile to make more money, they don't have a dedicated performance car. Lexus had one, LFA. MB spawn Mclaren SLR, SLS, and GT. 3 generations of dedicated performance car. Audi is one 2nd gen R8.
Audi, Mercedes Benz and Toyota competing in world class racing leagues relentlessly.When was the last time you heard BMW race in anything other than 24 hour Nurburgring and DTM?
If selling M3/4 and M sport part makes BMW the most performance focused brand, everyone including Ferrari should stop racing and sell 40K car/SUV with performance parts. They will have better profit margin.
Back in the day when only exotic brands made dedicated sports cars, mainstream luxury can get away with having a specialty car by adding more power and grip to their core models. Now BMW is the only one without a specialty car, it's not the most performance focused.
We can disagree on what's performance focused what's not, but BMW has no dedicated performance model is a fact.
Edit: FYI, BMW claimed itself i8 "its tech line".
Edit2: Let's stop derailing the thread.
Audi, Mercedes Benz and Toyota competing in world class racing leagues relentlessly.When was the last time you heard BMW race in anything other than 24 hour Nurburgring and DTM?
If selling M3/4 and M sport part makes BMW the most performance focused brand, everyone including Ferrari should stop racing and sell 40K car/SUV with performance parts. They will have better profit margin.
Back in the day when only exotic brands made dedicated sports cars, mainstream luxury can get away with having a specialty car by adding more power and grip to their core models. Now BMW is the only one without a specialty car, it's not the most performance focused.
We can disagree on what's performance focused what's not, but BMW has no dedicated performance model is a fact.
Edit: FYI, BMW claimed itself i8 "its tech line".
Edit2: Let's stop derailing the thread.
Racing in multiple events does not equate to being a performance brand, since if thats the case I`m pretty sure we can throw in alot more automakers as so-called Performance brands. Making a couple of halo cars is great. Dodge makes a viper, we can also throw em into the performance category as well right?
The point I`m trying to make is that performance is not something thats dictated by how many motorsports events you participate in, or the number of halo cars you can produce, but the ease in which as a big mfg you support the tuning, the driving dynamics, that inspires the most amount of people who buy and use your vehicles. I can pick up a bare bones N20i add in the track handling pack and 6 speed and go to town on any track event i would like. Tell me one brand that does the same MB does not offer such a feature for the masses. If you need power bump on up to the next tier. Even in the higher tiers, you see the new G series platform using CFRP as an additional innate means of getting a stronger lighter chassis.
But anyways. Lexus vs BMW sales #s I`m guess their legal teams are ready to go to court
02-18-16, 08:04 AM
#64
I was trying to say that if being # 1 is a primary objective, then it can lead to trade-offs that can diminish longer term goals (like quality for Toyota). So, I hope Lexus continues to focus on great cars and get to top spot with no compromises.
02-18-16, 08:26 AM
#65
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Lexus does not have a halo car anymore so we can stop sipping that cool aid (and if you say well thats one more then BMW, then go find lets start sipping on the M1 cool aid). Their performance brand is basically distilled on a heavy M4 Competitor and M5 Competitor known as the RC-F and GS-F. Everything else is basically a sports appearance package that gained popularity thanks to BMW`s populairty of M-Sport lines (vehicles that can be made to mimic the M versions with a couple of trim pieces and of course some additional hardware). The Lexus take on that F Sports is basically all trim pieces with no change in dynamics (some minor things like AVS).
Racing in multiple events does not equate to being a performance brand, since if thats the case I`m pretty sure we can throw in alot more automakers as so-called Performance brands. Making a couple of halo cars is great. Dodge makes a viper, we can also throw em into the performance category as well right?
The point I`m trying to make is that performance is not something thats dictated by how many motorsports events you participate in, or the number of halo cars you can produce, but the ease in which as a big mfg you support the tuning, the driving dynamics, that inspires the most amount of people who buy and use your vehicles. I can pick up a bare bones N20i add in the track handling pack and 6 speed and go to town on any track event i would like. Tell me one brand that does the same MB does not offer such a feature for the masses. If you need power bump on up to the next tier. Even in the higher tiers, you see the new G series platform using CFRP as an additional innate means of getting a stronger lighter chassis.
But anyways. Lexus vs BMW sales #s I`m guess their legal teams are ready to go to court
Racing in multiple events does not equate to being a performance brand, since if thats the case I`m pretty sure we can throw in alot more automakers as so-called Performance brands. Making a couple of halo cars is great. Dodge makes a viper, we can also throw em into the performance category as well right?
The point I`m trying to make is that performance is not something thats dictated by how many motorsports events you participate in, or the number of halo cars you can produce, but the ease in which as a big mfg you support the tuning, the driving dynamics, that inspires the most amount of people who buy and use your vehicles. I can pick up a bare bones N20i add in the track handling pack and 6 speed and go to town on any track event i would like. Tell me one brand that does the same MB does not offer such a feature for the masses. If you need power bump on up to the next tier. Even in the higher tiers, you see the new G series platform using CFRP as an additional innate means of getting a stronger lighter chassis.
But anyways. Lexus vs BMW sales #s I`m guess their legal teams are ready to go to court
You got it backward. Having a performance car doesn't make a brand, a performance focused, but a performance focused brand should have a performance car, go to racing. That's what VAG Porsche/Audi, McLaren, Ferrari. MB and Lotus do.
BMW is able to offer what they do because they actually sell ton of them, people still buy those because it's "cool" to have. They make a lot of money from their performance offerings. How many people you know taking their brand new BMW to the track? Their performance offering is for people who want bling. My friends took their E36/E92 M3 to the track because they are used cars. I don't know if you know, you can chip MB for power, same for Audi/VW and BMW. I'm not discounting BMW, they do innovate in some areas. Yes they have CFRP and great DCT (not PDK or GT-R DCT good, but still good.). They still offer manual while MB and Lexus are scared of doing.
02-18-16, 10:42 AM
#66
Lexus Fanatic
I agree with you. While I think the newest crop of interiors and exterior designs are the best ever, Lexus has kept the same engines that were sometimes debuted as far back as 05. As Lexus gets bigger and bigger, the pressure to move more cars such as the RX/ES is more evident. I still think Lexus makes great cars.
02-18-16, 11:42 AM
#67
Lead Lap
Of course, Lexus HAD LFA, they need a new halo car and LC is going to fill gap that (no LC is not competing with S-Class or 6 series if you look at dimension and spec). However, Lexus needs more than LC. I brought up Lexus, but I never once said it is the most performance focused, you just think I did.
You got it backward. Having a performance car doesn't make a brand, a performance focused, but a performance focused brand should have a performance car, go to racing. That's what VAG Porsche/Audi, McLaren, Ferrari. MB and Lotus do.
BMW is able to offer what they do because they actually sell ton of them, people still buy those because it's "cool" to have. They make a lot of money from their performance offerings. How many people you know taking their brand new BMW to the track? Their performance offering is for people who want bling. My friends took their E36/E92 M3 to the track because they are used cars. I don't know if you know, you can chip MB for power, same for Audi/VW and BMW. I'm not discounting BMW, they do innovate in some areas. Yes they have CFRP and great DCT (not PDK or GT-R DCT good, but still good.). They still offer manual while MB and Lexus are scared of doing.
You got it backward. Having a performance car doesn't make a brand, a performance focused, but a performance focused brand should have a performance car, go to racing. That's what VAG Porsche/Audi, McLaren, Ferrari. MB and Lotus do.
BMW is able to offer what they do because they actually sell ton of them, people still buy those because it's "cool" to have. They make a lot of money from their performance offerings. How many people you know taking their brand new BMW to the track? Their performance offering is for people who want bling. My friends took their E36/E92 M3 to the track because they are used cars. I don't know if you know, you can chip MB for power, same for Audi/VW and BMW. I'm not discounting BMW, they do innovate in some areas. Yes they have CFRP and great DCT (not PDK or GT-R DCT good, but still good.). They still offer manual while MB and Lexus are scared of doing.
Lets not change the goal posts and keep it on a similar level. In addition chipping is great, but so far only BMW gives you the option from the factory build. Again its about accessibility to performance rather then keeping it strictly aftermarket. People take new bimmers on the track events, come to some bimmerfest events you`ll see what i mean.
02-18-16, 12:04 PM
#68
Lexus Fanatic
Outside of people in the marketing business, and car-enthusiasts in forums like ours here, most people probably don't even concern themselves with numbers like this and/or how they are derived. If they want a Lexus, they buy or lease one, and if they want a BMW, same thing.
02-18-16, 12:08 PM
#69
Lexus Fanatic
Moderators.................I think these two threads can be merged. They cover essentially the same subject.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/car...n-dispute.html
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/car...n-dispute.html
02-18-16, 12:38 PM
#70
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to each his own, but you are confusing brands tiers of luxury. Lotus really, I should throw in Mclaren in the mix right?
Lets not change the goal posts and keep it on a similar level. In addition chipping is great, but so far only BMW gives you the option from the factory build. Again its about accessibility to performance rather then keeping it strictly aftermarket. People take new bimmers on the track events, come to some bimmerfest events you`ll see what i mean.
Lets not change the goal posts and keep it on a similar level. In addition chipping is great, but so far only BMW gives you the option from the factory build. Again its about accessibility to performance rather then keeping it strictly aftermarket. People take new bimmers on the track events, come to some bimmerfest events you`ll see what i mean.
Bimmerfest is where people chill. Do people really take their car to its limit? I assume it's like Subaru meets where 90% of people drives like idiots and 10% annihilates the scoreboard.
Beside, If they really know how track driving works, they know regular M3/4 don't have enough cooling for half day track day. GTS is the trim they want to be in. In fact, none of go-fast family cruiser offered by Lexus, BMW, MB and Audi can withstand full track day punishment (Maybe GTS or AMG GT? I don't know and I don't really care). Only thing I see running around race track all day is heavily modified Miata.
02-18-16, 01:17 PM
#71
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
http://www.autonews.com/article/2016...autonews-annow
Autonews say BMW gave dealers extra $1750 in December for "service loaners" that dealers logged as purchases.
Autonews say BMW gave dealers extra $1750 in December for "service loaners" that dealers logged as purchases.
02-18-16, 01:52 PM
#72
http://www.autonews.com/article/2016...autonews-annow
Autonews say BMW gave dealers extra $1750 in December for "service loaners" that dealers logged as purchases.
Autonews say BMW gave dealers extra $1750 in December for "service loaners" that dealers logged as purchases.
Wow.....and on top of that December was a bad month for bimmer...
Also, Bmw and MB cars are commonly exported so that also counts as non-registrations.
02-18-16, 02:12 PM
#73
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/10...sa-canada.html
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/10...sa-canada.html
With over 346,000 units sold, 2015 was BMW's best year ever.
Lexus just behind without the cheating.
Benz less than 10% ahead...
02-18-16, 02:25 PM
#74
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/10...sa-canada.html
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/10...sa-canada.html
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/10...sa-canada.html
With over 346,000 units sold, 2015 was BMW's best year ever.
Lexus just behind without the cheating.
Benz less than 10% ahead...
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/10...sa-canada.html
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/10...sa-canada.html
With over 346,000 units sold, 2015 was BMW's best year ever.
Lexus just behind without the cheating.
Benz less than 10% ahead...
02-18-16, 02:27 PM
#75
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
So are Lexus vehicles... my GS350 AWD was imported from USA. None of that changes what happens here and who is #1 in 2015 :-)