DShiekhi

Read it on reddit: The Perception of Lexus Sales in Europe



From all appearances, Lexus seems to be a success on this continent. What about across the Atlantic in Europe, though?

Read the rest on the ClubLexus.com homepage. >>

Big Andy

I live round the corner from a Lexus dealership and bought two 2nd gen IS250s. I liked the cars a lot as petrol autos but the taxation system in Europe is skewed towards diesels and the IS220d was an awful car with a heavy clutch and long throw manual transmission so it's appeal was limited.
I think Lexus has made the right choice by ditching the diesels and concentrating on hybrids instead. It's a smaller market but they are seen as the leaders in it and they don't have to discount heavily to maintain market share like the Germans.
Another big negative with Lexus is the frequent and expensive servicing with oil changes required every 10k miles (are we still living in the 90s?) whereas my BMW only needed oil changes every 18k.

Aron9000

10k mile oil changes are still pretty standard across the industry. And yes the dealer is expensive here in the USA as well, but the answer is just don't go to the dealer unless its for warranty work. A lot of people here get their cars serviced at the Toyota dealer or have their independent mechanic work on it. In the USA anybody that works on Toyotas will almost always be glad to work on your Lexus.

BMW has gotten into some hot water with their 18k mile oil change interval on their N54 V8 models. Basically the cars were coming in low on oil because the interval was so long. Also the oil was completely broken down after that many miles in some cars. Overall that type of service interval does not bode well for long term durability of engine bearings, turbo bearings, camshafts, etc. BMW moved to that longer service interval right at the same time they started offering free service while under warranty, read into that what you will.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

18k between oil changes?

not gonna go that long even if my manual says so...

My0gr81

The filter material in BMW's OEM filter used to start breaking down at about 15k miles under normal use. The ECU calculates oil change interval based on several factors, including temperature at cold start, how often and how long the engine's RPM were above a certain threshold, etc. Agreed though, long term reliability is questionable.

As far as Lexus in EU, I saw a few GS's at the hotel in Paris being used as black car limos.

irebel

I live in Europe and even though I owned Toyotas for more than 20 trouble free years when the time came to "upgrade" my car, Lexus came last in my shopping list. Why? Because when I compared cars with similar specifications it turned out that Lexus could not compete. To be more specific, I was looking for a car in the Lexus GS class so I shopped around BMW 528, Mercedes E250, Audi A6, Volvo S80 T5 and Lexus GS. I ended up with the Volvo S80 T5. The only GS option I had, was the GS300h since the GS200t is not offered at all in my country because of its very high emissions. The tax system (as well as in many European countries) is based solely on emissions and Lexus fails (so far) to offer a performance car in this class with decent emissions. Next, I compared performance. Again Lexus came last by far since the GS300h trails by more than 2.5 seconds in 0-62 and by almost 30 miles in maximum speed. Even though the hybrid Lexus had significant lower emissions (hence lower tax) than the Volvo S80 T5, its price was much higher (by 10,000 euro) so all the benefits of better consumption have been diminished by the higher price. As far as reliability is concerned, so far I have not encountered any issues with my choice. So, I believe as long as Lexus does not offer cars that not only can compete but are better (in terms of performance, emissions, consumption, price, etc) than the already established European cars, then its future in this market is questionable.

Mr Bond

I also live in Europe and I think that one of the major problems here is that you don´t hear anything about them. Lexus may be the best selling luxury hybrid by far but then we have Toyota, and thats the brand 99% of the people here connects with hybrids, not Lexus.

Another thing is that Lexus does not seem to understand how the luxury market here works. If I want to buy a premium german I can choose options almost freely ( with a few exceptions ). Lexus comes in packages that cannot be changed. For example: I want my Audi to have the matrix LED headlights, luxury leather and carbon fiber panels. What do I do ? Well, just add them as individual options. No matter of model or engine . Lexus = forget it. It may work for a Toyota Yaris where nobody cares as long as the car has a radio and air condition, but Lexus is luxury, right ?

Brand names, and this is probably the hardest thing for Lexus to beat. If you want to compete with names like Merc, BMW, Aston Martin, Porsche, Jaguar and so on you can`t be "almost as good as them " in tests and so on. You have to "destroy them" with both facts, feelings and figures. Remember that this is Europe and that people in general loves domestic brands in the sport + luxury segment. Trust me, it takes a lot for a premium buyer to even accept a challenger from another continent. The Nissan GTR and Corvette Z06 vs Porsche on Nurburgring a few years ago is the way to go.

Conclusion : Lexus still has work to do in some areas.

Sulu

irebel and Mr Bond: The way you describe it, Lexus will forever be at a disadvantage, until -- and unless -- Toyota decides to build Lexus vehicle(s) in Europe. Yet, to decide to build a Lexus vehicle in Europe is a chicken-and-egg issue: Toyota likely will not build a Lexus vehicle in Europe until there is a vehicle that sells in high-enough volume to justify building a Lexus assembly plant in Europe; yet, without building a Lexus vehicle in Europe, Toyota is not likely to reach such a volume to justify the plant.

And what gives Toyota another disadvantage is that it does not already assemble in Western Europe (where the most demand and greatest volume exists) any vehicles that share a platform with a current Lexus vehicle, so it cannot share a plant to build a Lexus vehicle. There is one exception, however, and that is the Camry assembly plant in Russia. But would deciding to build a Lexus vehicle for the (western) European market in Russia, alongside the Russian-assembled Camry, be similar to Toyota deciding to build a Lexus vehicle in Mexico for the Canadian and American markets (i.e. build it but the buyers will not come to buy a Russian- or Mexican-built Lexus)?

The luxury brands that you talk about -- BMW, MB, Aston Martin, Porsche, Audi, etc. -- are all European brands that are built "locally" so they can afford to give you the exact (even small) options that you want. Lexus cannot do that with the distances involved between its assembly plants and its European dealerships; to allow a custom order of a very specific option would take weeks if not months to schedule on the Japanese assembly line and ship to the European dealership. The best that could be done, I suppose, would be if Toyota built up a network of special upfitters affiliated with distribution centres (that stocked a great enough inventory of popular options and supporting components); but that would involve making optional components easily swappable -- "plug and play". That too would have to be justified with great enough demand to justify the costs of carrying the popular options and supporting components.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

i didn't see them conclude or imply that and i don't agree with it either.

i disagree that the distance is that big a deal. if a european order went to a japanese factory that was actually configured to deliver custom vehicle builds, that could be done promptly, and it could go on the next container ship over, which wouldn't be months, it would be days...

quick math - google search says typical container ship cruises at 21–25 knots (38.9-46.3 km/h) - 25 knots is almost 29mph but let's say 28. a 6000 trip (rough distance from japan to uk) would be completed in 9 days.

but that's just not toyota or lexus' philosophy, except for the lexus 'select' trim which i'm not sure is offered outside japan!

Selmermk6

I think it is down to brand snobbery. Also many people only buy the entry level premium brands. Small engines and diesels. BMW 1 series, A1 & A3 Audis and A & B class Mercs. A 116i BMW is premium car in name only.

Also strange is that many people say that Lexus is a simply a posh Toyota, but are prepared buy a bog standard Mercedes with a Renault engine. I not sure what are the entry level vehicles in the premium sector in the USA.

Journalism does not help either. The IS300h for example is always compared to diesels, when BMW, Audi and Merc build hybrids cars. I fear that like for like comparisons would not be favourable.

8M6

iTrader: (2)

There's better discussion in the actual Reddit thread the article cites.

https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/commen...lar_in_europe/

Between pricing, taxes, lack of diesels, lack of wagons, brand recognition, and no revolt against the home country automakers like there was in the US, it's not going to be easy to make any inroads in Europe.

spwolf

Jaguar sells less cars than Lexus in Europe... I would not base my argument on brand.

Lexus competitiveness depends on where you live in Europe... for instance in Germany, nobody buys an Lexus, but it is much stronger in some other countries like Russia and parts of Western Europe where Toyota is strong.

Most people buy BMW, Audi, Merc as fleet vehicles and they are substantially cheaper to lease than any Lexus.

So Lexus will never sell 500k in Europe, and thats fine by them... they want to do 100k and that likely means another small SUV.

spwolf

well brand comes in play when you compare A4, 3 series and C class to Passat class not Lexus.

Unlike in the USA, here in Europe we can buy 3 series, A4 and C class at prices similar to other non-luxury vehicles in D segment... so why exactly would I buy well equipped Avensis, C5, 508, Mondeo or Insignia when for very similar money I can buy nice 318d with M-Sport package. It might not have leather but it will have decent enough equipment and look premium enough.

Mr Bond

Yes I know, but Jaguar does not have cars like the CTh or NX h which probably stands for 50% of euro sales today. But thats not my point. If you had 100 000 euro to spend on car, how many would buy a Lexus and how many would buy a Jag ?

Aron9000

I'd buy an F-type Jaguar over a Lexus RC any day of the week. Still not sold on Jaguar sedans though, Audi, Lexus, and Benz all make better cars IMO.