Opinions about the refreshed 2017 IS Line
#46
Originally Posted by Aron9000
The lights, turn signals, wipers, and cruise control are all the same layout/operation on my 1992 SC300. IMO Toyota perfected the layout way back when on all those controls, so why should it be any different???? I'd much rather have these controls than BMW's stupid wiper controls and turn signal lever that doesn't have detents at all. Its nice to hop into a Toyota product and know how to operate pretty much everything except maybe the radio on newer models.
#47
The lights, turn signals, wipers, and cruise control are all the same layout/operation on my 1992 SC300. IMO Toyota perfected the layout way back when on all those controls, so why should it be any different???? I'd much rather have these controls than BMW's stupid wiper controls and turn signal lever that doesn't have detents at all. Its nice to hop into a Toyota product and know how to operate pretty much everything except maybe the radio on newer models.
I think this speaks volumes about how the Japanese and Germans view luxury differently. The Japanese refine older technologies instead of developing new ones, and have a "if it aint broken don't fix it" mentality. It took until this year for Lexus to change the decades-old powertrain in the IS, whereas the Germans are consistently putting new and improved engines and transmissions in their cars with every new bodystyle and mid-cycle refresh. The Germans are always striving to put new and expensive technology in their cars which makes them unreliable, but still superior cars overall.
#48
"Superior cars" is relative. Perhaps superior to someone who might test it for a magazine or drive it as a rental car. But, owning a car that is unreliable, always needs to go to the shop, etc warranty or not is a huge inconvenience and to me outweighs any of these potential positives. I've been there.
#49
Because a real luxury car doesn't share components with a 25 year old car. While Lexus has made great strides with their interiors, they are still a notch below the Germans because of things like this. The devil is in the details.
I think this speaks volumes about how the Japanese and Germans view luxury differently. The Japanese refine older technologies instead of developing new ones, and have a "if it aint broken don't fix it" mentality. It took until this year for Lexus to change the decades-old powertrain in the IS, whereas the Germans are consistently putting new and improved engines and transmissions in their cars with every new bodystyle and mid-cycle refresh. The Germans are always striving to put new and expensive technology in their cars which makes them unreliable, but still superior cars overall.
I think this speaks volumes about how the Japanese and Germans view luxury differently. The Japanese refine older technologies instead of developing new ones, and have a "if it aint broken don't fix it" mentality. It took until this year for Lexus to change the decades-old powertrain in the IS, whereas the Germans are consistently putting new and improved engines and transmissions in their cars with every new bodystyle and mid-cycle refresh. The Germans are always striving to put new and expensive technology in their cars which makes them unreliable, but still superior cars overall.
Back in the 1980's, the Japs thumped the Europeans on turbos on both road cars and Formula 1 racing leaving the Europeans and Ferrari gasping for breath.
In the late 1980's came multi-valve engines.
Once again, the Japanese thumped the Europeans to death with the 1986 Toyota Supra and 1988 Toyota Cressida both sharing the 3.0L in-line six with twin cams and 24 valves, while the 1989 Lexus LS400 4.0L V8 with quad cams and 48 valves and a silky smooth super reliable engine.
Both the Supra/Cressida and the LS400 featured rear wheel drive, and multilink suspension.
In the late 1980's and early 1990's, Honda began making variable valve timing and lift VTEC engines in Civics, Integras and Preludes etc that redlined at over 8,000 RPM - leaving the Europeans behind in the dust.
10 years ago, the Japs with multivalve engines were winning Ward's Top Engines regularly, beating the Europeans at their own game.
Now that has changed.
Here's why.
The European continent's biggest market is Europe itself, however Japan is only a nation, so Japan's biggest market is the USA.
Europe is limited by square miles of land area, while the USA has 5-10 million square miles of land, such that pollution becomes a major issue for Europe.
Due to stringent motor vehicle emissions regulations, the Europeans are forced to use small capacity engines with forced induction!
To prevent traffic congestion & reduce pollution, European fuel is taxed so that it is up to three times the price of US gasoline!
The Japanese and the US is only now beginning to adopt such stringent emissions vehicles, however gasoline is still significantly cheaper in the US.
The Europeans now promote power as a by-product of forced induction, while they keep quiet about the smoothness and power delivery and NVH noise vibration harshness of small capacity forced induction.
Once the Japs get cracking, they may whack the Europeans again?
It's like Tesla; once the major manufacturers get cracking, it could be all over for Tesla?
On a slightly different note, the Europeans are free to export to Japan, but the Japanese are not free to export to Europe.
In Europe, Japanese cars are limited by both quotas and tariffs.
The US market is not only the biggest luxury market in the world, but the US is a neutral market where both European and Jap imports are on a level playing field.
The Chinese market is an emerging 2nd biggest luxury market, and the Chinese market is also a neutral market where both European and Japanese cars are on a level playing field.
Lexus refuses to assemble their vehicles in China such that an IS costs 2-3 times more than a 3 Series or A4; that's Lexus' own decision not to assemble their cars in China.
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Last edited by peteharvey; 05-01-16 at 03:05 PM.
#51
That quote makes me laugh. Lexus interiors completely & utterly annihilated the europeans from day one.
Also you talk about engine "tech", so do tell what "tech" is missing from my velvety smooth, refined, unruffled performing and above most rock solid reliable 2GR-FSE V6?
I've test driven the C250 and it felt like a big downgrade compared to my 2011 IS350 in every way, the engine was cacophonies, weak, unrefined. The interior felt cheap and flimsy and the entire car felt less substantial in general. Honestly the IS platform is a tank.
Also you talk about engine "tech", so do tell what "tech" is missing from my velvety smooth, refined, unruffled performing and above most rock solid reliable 2GR-FSE V6?
I've test driven the C250 and it felt like a big downgrade compared to my 2011 IS350 in every way, the engine was cacophonies, weak, unrefined. The interior felt cheap and flimsy and the entire car felt less substantial in general. Honestly the IS platform is a tank.
2) That engine is reliable but there's no way you can argue it outclasses the new B58 engine in the 335 or even the N55 it replaces (the N54 had the HPFP issues). It took Lexus so long to finally introduce turbo 4s and 8-speed transmissions, whereas everybody else has been doing it for years.
3) I agree that the previous-gen C-class was a POS, but I'm comparing the current IS to the current C-class.
#52
Bimmers are still among the most fun to drive in their segments but the gap has narrowed. Thankfully the M3/M4 are still BMW enough, and I hear the new M2 is something special.
#53
Which looks more modern and ergonomic even today, and which has likely held up better? The S Class interior looks like a relic. Just because I own a German car doesn't mean I can't give credit where credit is due.
Last edited by dseag2; 05-02-16 at 07:24 PM.
#54
#56
1) ...
2) That engine is reliable but there's no way you can argue it outclasses the new B58 engine in the 335 or even the N55 it replaces (the N54 had the HPFP issues). It took Lexus so long to finally introduce turbo 4s and 8-speed transmissions, whereas everybody else has been doing it for years.
3) I agree that the previous-gen C-class was a POS, but I'm comparing the current IS to the current C-class.
2) That engine is reliable but there's no way you can argue it outclasses the new B58 engine in the 335 or even the N55 it replaces (the N54 had the HPFP issues). It took Lexus so long to finally introduce turbo 4s and 8-speed transmissions, whereas everybody else has been doing it for years.
3) I agree that the previous-gen C-class was a POS, but I'm comparing the current IS to the current C-class.
Perhaps, all Toyota/Lexus have to do is change the naming of the engine, transmission with every changes and people will think they have a new engine.
The previous C Class was POS, but the new C Class compares better to the current IS, so really, it's MB that had the catching up to do, which they did, 3 years after Lexus released the 3rd gen IS in 2013 in Europe.
#58
1) .... I genuinely believe that Lexus has finally started making some compelling interiors since the release of the current GS, but sit in any Lexus side-by-side with the German competition and it'll lack the attention to detail the Germans have. If you are an objective person you'd agree.
Last edited by 1111GS; 05-03-16 at 03:08 PM.
#59
I think one of the things about interiors is that the feel of actually sitting in an interior is different than the pictures of that interior. I would absolutely cede that in general German interiors have better quality materials and attention to detail. BUT, for instance Audi and Mercedes interiors, in general when I actually sit in them they just don't do anything for me. They're too hard, too firm, too angular. The materials are excellent but they lack poshness or softness. I feel that way about every Mercedes I've ever sat in but the S Class, and every Audi but the A8. BMW materials lately I've really been liking when they have upgraded leather packages, etc.
#60
I love new E Class interior styling.
It's not that stylish, but certainly upmarket.
I don't like Benz's ergonomics, as much as Japs.
I'm scared the transmission shift lever on the side stalk will fail in time, and Benz tends to have a lot of electronics problems over time.
It's not that stylish, but certainly upmarket.
I don't like Benz's ergonomics, as much as Japs.
I'm scared the transmission shift lever on the side stalk will fail in time, and Benz tends to have a lot of electronics problems over time.