Just FYI, my GS had turn signals that did not have any detents and popped back to center just like BMWs. My LS does not but it's an older design.

 

Because a real luxury car doesn't share components with a 25 year old car. While Lexus has made great strides with their interiors, they are still a notch below the Germans because of things like this. The devil is in the details.

I think this speaks volumes about how the Japanese and Germans view luxury differently. The Japanese refine older technologies instead of developing new ones, and have a "if it aint broken don't fix it" mentality. It took until this year for Lexus to change the decades-old powertrain in the IS, whereas the Germans are consistently putting new and improved engines and transmissions in their cars with every new bodystyle and mid-cycle refresh. The Germans are always striving to put new and expensive technology in their cars which makes them unreliable, but still superior cars overall.

 

"Superior cars" is relative. Perhaps superior to someone who might test it for a magazine or drive it as a rental car. But, owning a car that is unreliable, always needs to go to the shop, etc warranty or not is a huge inconvenience and to me outweighs any of these potential positives. I've been there.

 

I find that we humans think similarly alike.

Back in the 1980's, the Japs thumped the Europeans on turbos on both road cars and Formula 1 racing leaving the Europeans and Ferrari gasping for breath.

In the late 1980's came multi-valve engines.
Once again, the Japanese thumped the Europeans to death with the 1986 Toyota Supra and 1988 Toyota Cressida both sharing the 3.0L in-line six with twin cams and 24 valves, while the 1989 Lexus LS400 4.0L V8 with quad cams and 48 valves and a silky smooth super reliable engine.
Both the Supra/Cressida and the LS400 featured rear wheel drive, and multilink suspension.

In the late 1980's and early 1990's, Honda began making variable valve timing and lift VTEC engines in Civics, Integras and Preludes etc that redlined at over 8,000 RPM - leaving the Europeans behind in the dust.

10 years ago, the Japs with multivalve engines were winning Ward's Top Engines regularly, beating the Europeans at their own game.
Now that has changed.
Here's why.

The European continent's biggest market is Europe itself, however Japan is only a nation, so Japan's biggest market is the USA.

Europe is limited by square miles of land area, while the USA has 5-10 million square miles of land, such that pollution becomes a major issue for Europe.
Due to stringent motor vehicle emissions regulations, the Europeans are forced to use small capacity engines with forced induction!

To prevent traffic congestion & reduce pollution, European fuel is taxed so that it is up to three times the price of US gasoline!

The Japanese and the US is only now beginning to adopt such stringent emissions vehicles, however gasoline is still significantly cheaper in the US.

The Europeans now promote power as a by-product of forced induction, while they keep quiet about the smoothness and power delivery and NVH noise vibration harshness of small capacity forced induction.

Once the Japs get cracking, they may whack the Europeans again?
It's like Tesla; once the major manufacturers get cracking, it could be all over for Tesla?


On a slightly different note, the Europeans are free to export to Japan, but the Japanese are not free to export to Europe.
In Europe, Japanese cars are limited by both quotas and tariffs.
The US market is not only the biggest luxury market in the world, but the US is a neutral market where both European and Jap imports are on a level playing field.

The Chinese market is an emerging 2nd biggest luxury market, and the Chinese market is also a neutral market where both European and Japanese cars are on a level playing field.
Lexus refuses to assemble their vehicles in China such that an IS costs 2-3 times more than a 3 Series or A4; that's Lexus' own decision not to assemble their cars in China.
.

 

What's laughable is the F30 chassis. The E90 was so much better. The IS chassis is its best feature. The ride/handling is so damn good.

 

1) Give me some examples of Lexus interiors that "annihilated the Europeans from day one." Now Mercedes went through a really mediocre period when they were partnered with Chrysler, but before and after that they have been making fabulous interiors (minus some of their current SUVs). I genuinely believe that Lexus has finally started making some compelling interiors since the release of the current GS, but sit in any Lexus side-by-side with the German competition and it'll lack the attention to detail the Germans have. If you are an objective person you'd agree.

2) That engine is reliable but there's no way you can argue it outclasses the new B58 engine in the 335 or even the N55 it replaces (the N54 had the HPFP issues). It took Lexus so long to finally introduce turbo 4s and 8-speed transmissions, whereas everybody else has been doing it for years.

3) I agree that the previous-gen C-class was a POS, but I'm comparing the current IS to the current C-class.

 

I have to agree. They watered down the current 3-series to widen its appeal. A recent C&D review of the refreshed model had a segment where the editors asked BMW chassis engineers why the steering is still so light on feedback and they basically answered that they have the tech to match the feel of the E90 but won't do it because "the customers don't want it." It's a real shame and is the primary reason why I didn't "upgrade" to the F30 from my E90 and why my folks hung onto their E70 M sport instead of getting into the F15. The current X3, 5-series, etc. have also gone soft.

Bimmers are still among the most fun to drive in their segments but the gap has narrowed. Thankfully the M3/M4 are still BMW enough, and I hear the new M2 is something special.

 

You want examples? Well, this truly was Day One, since the LS400 was introduced in 1989. Side-by-side comparisons of 1990 S Class and 1990 LS400. I don't think Chrysler was affiliated with M-B in those days.

Which looks more modern and ergonomic even today, and which has likely held up better? The S Class interior looks like a relic. Just because I own a German car doesn't mean I can't give credit where credit is due.

 

Wasn't it actually Lexus that had the first production 8 speed auto, in the 2007 LS460?

 

This is correct.

 

Note that Toyota/Lexus has been making incremental improvements and updates on the 2GR and 4GR engines since their introduction. They just maintain the naming convention that makes it look like it is the same engine. The Germans rename to whole engine with every change. In fact, the 2GR in the FWD biased cars is different configuration than the 2GR in the RWD biased cars, as it is oriented differently. People still think that engine in the IS350 is the same as the engine in the ES350, when it's not the case. Mounting wise, but also fuel injection wise.

Perhaps, all Toyota/Lexus have to do is change the naming of the engine, transmission with every changes and people will think they have a new engine.

The previous C Class was POS, but the new C Class compares better to the current IS, so really, it's MB that had the catching up to do, which they did, 3 years after Lexus released the 3rd gen IS in 2013 in Europe.

 

IS200t just won overseas comparo on YouTube here:

 

If you're talking about current GS vs. current E, I would have to disagree with you. The only area that E may win over is the badge and exterior, which is also arguable.

 

I think one of the things about interiors is that the feel of actually sitting in an interior is different than the pictures of that interior. I would absolutely cede that in general German interiors have better quality materials and attention to detail. BUT, for instance Audi and Mercedes interiors, in general when I actually sit in them they just don't do anything for me. They're too hard, too firm, too angular. The materials are excellent but they lack poshness or softness. I feel that way about every Mercedes I've ever sat in but the S Class, and every Audi but the A8. BMW materials lately I've really been liking when they have upgraded leather packages, etc.

 

I love new E Class interior styling.
It's not that stylish, but certainly upmarket.

I don't like Benz's ergonomics, as much as Japs.
I'm scared the transmission shift lever on the side stalk will fail in time, and Benz tends to have a lot of electronics problems over time.