Toyota building new twin-turbo V6, to appear in GS, LS
01-19-17, 09:44 AM
#77
Hopefully they're not too late on the next big thing - the electric bandwagon.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...c-car-division
01-19-17, 09:48 AM
#78
Lexus Test Driver
EVs are a waste as well, too expensive and infrastructure is very limited.
Stick to ICE and make them super efficient!
Stick to ICE and make them super efficient!
Last edited by RNM GS3; 01-19-17 at 09:51 AM.
01-19-17, 10:01 AM
#79
Especially when you consider that manufacturers must also develop a dedicated platform rather than use a conventional ICE platform.
Hence, TMC have to develop all these small capacity turbos in the interim.
Lexus was late to the party with their 2.0 i4 Turbo, but I am happy that in the wife's IS200t, it is a good effort compared to the 2014 C Class benchmark.
Though late to the party, hopefully their V6 TT's are up to scratch too...
.
Last edited by peteharvey; 01-19-17 at 10:22 AM.
01-19-17, 11:23 AM
#80
Nobody can defy physics. More power will always equal to more fuel being used. Hybrids changes that equation somewhat. The only real benefit is the ability to use smaller engines that requires less fuel while stuck in traffic or idling. If you need to go in a hurry, it will burn fuel. My GS350 does not feel underpowered, just not as fast as the competition. Honestly, with the speed limits at 55 in NY and 65 in most of the US...the heck I need 400+ hp for?
01-19-17, 11:37 AM
#81
Lexus Fanatic
01-19-17, 12:50 PM
#82
The smaller the displacement, the lower the reciprocating mass, and the more smoothly the engine spins.
A 3.0 V6 TT will be both more economical and smoother than a 3.5 V6 TT, but the latter will have more power and torque.
The 3.0 V6 TT can be lighter if it is made from its own block.
However, if they did make a 3.0 V6 TT for the GS, then commonsense would say that they would make a 2.5 V6 TT for the IS; this would be great if it were true.
Having three different V6 capacities would also prevent devaluing the more expensive models.
Many decades ago, Toyota had their in-line and V6's in many different capacities like 2.0, 2.5, 3.0, 3.5 and even 4.0 for some of their commercial vehicles.
However, right now, I just don't see TMC making too many different variations in capacities.
I haven't even heard of TMC move into 1.5 and 2.5L four cylinder turbos like the Honda Civic and Mazda CX-9.
A 3.0 V6 TT will be both more economical and smoother than a 3.5 V6 TT, but the latter will have more power and torque.
The 3.0 V6 TT can be lighter if it is made from its own block.
However, if they did make a 3.0 V6 TT for the GS, then commonsense would say that they would make a 2.5 V6 TT for the IS; this would be great if it were true.
Having three different V6 capacities would also prevent devaluing the more expensive models.
Many decades ago, Toyota had their in-line and V6's in many different capacities like 2.0, 2.5, 3.0, 3.5 and even 4.0 for some of their commercial vehicles.
However, right now, I just don't see TMC making too many different variations in capacities.
I haven't even heard of TMC move into 1.5 and 2.5L four cylinder turbos like the Honda Civic and Mazda CX-9.
That said, knowing Lexus I think a 2.5L TTV6 in the IS is a pipe dream.
01-19-17, 01:41 PM
#83
Pole Position
Are all V configured engines twin turbocharged? Serious question. In order to not dilute the TTV6 in the LS, you gotta have some degree of separation. Yes they can detune the engine, its still the same engine in a car half the price as the LS.
01-19-17, 01:56 PM
#84
Lexus Test Driver
They can use a twin scroll single turbocharger.
But it also means that the turbo or turbos are in the 'V' like Porsche's new design, with reverse-flow headers.
In fact between Audi and Porsche they are doing just that, a single twin scroll for the S5 then using pretty much the same engine but two turbos (and higher output) in the Panemera. The difference, at least in the Audi single vs Porsche Twin design is 100 HP. The single twin scroll is anticipated to be good for 354 HP I think.
However, I have no idea how this engine is designed or built. It could just be a traditional turbo setup, which would make a single twin scroll much more difficult and complex.
But it also means that the turbo or turbos are in the 'V' like Porsche's new design, with reverse-flow headers.
In fact between Audi and Porsche they are doing just that, a single twin scroll for the S5 then using pretty much the same engine but two turbos (and higher output) in the Panemera. The difference, at least in the Audi single vs Porsche Twin design is 100 HP. The single twin scroll is anticipated to be good for 354 HP I think.
However, I have no idea how this engine is designed or built. It could just be a traditional turbo setup, which would make a single twin scroll much more difficult and complex.
Last edited by Rhambler; 01-19-17 at 02:27 PM.
01-19-17, 02:27 PM
#85
Lexus Test Driver
Here's the new Audi V6 engine, single Turbo:
http://youwheel.com/home/2016/06/08/...3-0l-turbo-v6/
And here's the very closely related new Porsche Engine:
http://youwheel.com/home/2016/07/05/...rbo-v6-engine/
http://articles.sae.org/14923/
http://youwheel.com/home/2016/06/08/...3-0l-turbo-v6/
And here's the very closely related new Porsche Engine:
http://youwheel.com/home/2016/07/05/...rbo-v6-engine/
http://articles.sae.org/14923/
01-19-17, 03:57 PM
#86
Lexus Fanatic
This is good thread to bump as the rumors proved true, although the displacement was wrong, unless of course Toyota is also developing a 3.0 Liter TT.
Most of the early rumors suggested this engine would also find its way into the GS, so unless Toyota was being disingenuous about saying the 3.5 L was developed specifically for the LS, it could very well find its way into the GS.
Will Toyota detune this engine for the GS? I think that would be a mistake, but at the same time it would diminish the value of the LS, again assuming the 3.5 L is the only V6 TT Toyota is developing.
What benefit would it have developing a 3 liter TT now that it has the 3.5? Just seems too similar so the next GS may very well have the same engine. Even if detuned, I'm sure nothing more than a laptop could unlock the LS level lol.
Most of the early rumors suggested this engine would also find its way into the GS, so unless Toyota was being disingenuous about saying the 3.5 L was developed specifically for the LS, it could very well find its way into the GS.
Will Toyota detune this engine for the GS? I think that would be a mistake, but at the same time it would diminish the value of the LS, again assuming the 3.5 L is the only V6 TT Toyota is developing.
What benefit would it have developing a 3 liter TT now that it has the 3.5? Just seems too similar so the next GS may very well have the same engine. Even if detuned, I'm sure nothing more than a laptop could unlock the LS level lol.
01-19-17, 07:02 PM
#87
From factory most V engines that are twin turbos have one on each side. Single Turbo V6 is doable like Rhambler pointed out above that Audi has done. But Toyota already has this 3.5TTV6 no need to reconfigure it with a single turbo in an effort to detune it when it can all be done via ECU with same motor as the LS. But once the aftermarket breaks the ECU or provide Standalone ECU then it doesn't matter what Toyota did to detune.
01-19-17, 09:24 PM
#88
Interestingly, the article that Rhambler quoted says that twin turbos have more bottom end punch, while single turbos have more top end torque.
01-20-17, 05:34 AM
#89
Lexus Test Driver
Actually the single twin scroll design allows for better throttle response in lower RPM, which I interpret as less lag. The twin turbo setup using mono-scroll turbos has more lag.
I'm not a mechanical engineer but I assume it has to do with various elements including simple inertia and boost pressure.
Toyota's engine mentioned long stroke and is probably nothing more than a longer stroke in the bore vs stroke cylinder design. I don't know the benefits of that, but maybe it helps counter turbo lag or more bottom end since each cylinder is producing power over a longer range.
I tried to search SAE's white papers for details about this engine as it is not uncommon for engineers to produce "white papers" on specific innovations but there was nothing. For reference, Toyota has white papers on the DS4 fuel system and various transmission topics, but zero in this power train.
I'm really curious if this engine is similar to Porsche/Audi's (Volkswagen AG) design with reverse headers and the Turbos in the V or if it's more conventional in Turbo placement.
I'm not a mechanical engineer but I assume it has to do with various elements including simple inertia and boost pressure.
Toyota's engine mentioned long stroke and is probably nothing more than a longer stroke in the bore vs stroke cylinder design. I don't know the benefits of that, but maybe it helps counter turbo lag or more bottom end since each cylinder is producing power over a longer range.
I tried to search SAE's white papers for details about this engine as it is not uncommon for engineers to produce "white papers" on specific innovations but there was nothing. For reference, Toyota has white papers on the DS4 fuel system and various transmission topics, but zero in this power train.
I'm really curious if this engine is similar to Porsche/Audi's (Volkswagen AG) design with reverse headers and the Turbos in the V or if it's more conventional in Turbo placement.
01-20-17, 11:12 AM
#90
Lexus Test Driver
I don't think there is any reason to de tune this engine if it were to go into a GS. The 1998 GS400 debuted with a 300hp V8 while the LS430 had a 290hp V8 for several years and was not as quick as the GS. It would not make any sense to also develop a 3.0 liter just to try to make the 3.5 in the 6 cyl LS seem more special.
Not sure their thought process nowadays especially leaving the sameexact engine (3.5 V6) in the GS and IS for 10+ years!
I'm almost 100% sure they will detune the engine if there will even be 5th Gen GS, at this point its up in the air.....
I highly doubt they will spend the $$$ to put the new powertrain in the old GS/IS chassis.