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Toyota has built its reputation currently on building vehicles that are green. Hybrids, Plug in Hybrids, Hydrogen Cells. Right now Diesel has the wrong optics for the brand. The only place a diesel is at home currently, that the optics of diesel sit right with are a refreshed Taco and Tundra. These markets dont give a **** that diesel pollutes or whatever. The customer base needs the best damn puller it can find. The more pull the more $$$ per job.
Right now Toyota I believe is investing into modular platforms, electrification into popular platforms, and of course forced induction.
"Toyota has built its reputation currently on building vehicles that are green."
The only problem is the gas engine SUV's may not be as green as we think or less green than the new diesel designs:
Tailpipe CO2 emissions for this used TOYOTA Land Cruiser suv are 270 g/km and it has obtained Euro Standard 4 for air quality.
2014 LEXUS LX570 350g/km
*There are some myths or truths that may not be as applicable today since computers and engineering have changed cars so much in the last 10 years. What if some of what we know about diesels no longer applies.
"Toyota has built its reputation currently on building vehicles that are green."
The only problem is the gas engine SUV's may not be as green as we think or less green than the new diesel designs:
Tailpipe CO2 emissions for this used TOYOTA Land Cruiser suv are 270 g/km and it has obtained Euro Standard 4 for air quality.
2014 LEXUS LX570 350g/km
*There are some myths or truths that may not be as applicable today since computers and engineering have changed cars so much in the last 10 years. What if some of what we know about diesels no longer applies.
I agree wholeheartedly, that done right, a diesel has significant benefits but, facts and data are only part of the equation. If the consumers base is still fresh with the HUGE VW story, its hard to sell a diesel to customers, especially in a market that has a solid relationship with gasoline and alternative fuel vehicles. The other thing is refinement. If you sit in an LX, the customer base wants an vault like cabin. If they hear the clatter of diesel, its a turnoff. The LC community wont care as much, but the LX would be disappointed if the levels of interior refinement is subpar.
Even in a perfect environment, for example diesels havent had a nice welcoming. Tons of incentives credit, marketing, and test drives later did they establish their market share for X5 diesels. From there its still not a seller when compared to the X5 35i, but still makes a business case for itself. Right now Lexus or moreso Toyota would have to double or triple their launch budget for a diesel vehicle and hope that the market responds and has moved past the VW debacle.
Ahem...the twin turbo 4.5 will smoke the 5.7 in every real world test except 0-60. The Diesel Land Cruiser is the money maker for Toyota...not the gas. It's 1.6s slower to 60 but it can bring the house while saving gas! #'s & sources below
LOL...Nice try..The link does not work. The 5.7 will destroy the 4.5. The 4.5 is not powerful enough and will not hold up to US markets.
I can't imagine that a Lexus with $100K price tag and a diesel with just 280hp would go over well. The 5.7 will out perform it.
Just an FYI, the Land Cruiser 5.7 has a higher tow rating than the Land Cruiser 4.5, it will haul better up hills and it and around tow.
I will give the 4.5 credit for MPG, but does that really matters at the 100k price point. And the 4.5 will be the better everyday hauler, but the 4.5 is still way too undersized for a 3 ton vehicle.
Interesting enough, the LX is supposed to be getting a 4.5 diesel option in some markets.
I can't imagine that a Lexus with $100K price tag and a diesel with just 280hp would go over well.
In most cases, though, because of a diesel engine's combustion characteristics, extreme compression, and long piston strokes, 280 HP is going to mean 400 to 500 ft lbs. of low-RPM torque.....possibly even more. Torque is the figure that most owners of large SUVs and pickups want, not HP, because torque determines how much weight can be carried on board, how much can be towed, and how well the vehicle will be able to crawl over obstacles off-road.
In most cases, though, because of a diesel engine's combustion characteristics, extreme compression, and long piston strokes, 280 HP is going to mean 400 to 500 ft lbs. of low-RPM torque.....possibly even more. Torque is the figure that most owners of large SUVs and pickups want, not HP, because torque determines how much weight can be carried on board, how much can be towed, and how well the vehicle will be able to crawl over obstacles off-road.
mmarshall, do you read into what others say?
The 5.7 with lower torque and a higher horsepower rating can tow more than the 4.5 diesel engine that has more torque but 100 less HP. The is a FACT. The 4.5 is not sufficient enough for a 6 ton vehicle, especially when there is going to be a big price premium. Something along the lines out what Nissan is offering in their Titan XD is what would be needed to be the superior option over the 5.7 engine.
The 5.7 with lower torque and a higher horsepower rating can tow more than the 4.5 diesel engine that has more torque but 100 less HP. The is a FACT. The 4.5 is not sufficient enough for a 6 ton vehicle, especially when there is going to be a big price premium. Something along the lines out what Nissan is offering in their Titan XD is what would be needed to be the superior option over the 5.7 engine.
I wasn't necessarily refering to the specific 4.5L, but diesel engines in general. Tow-ratings are also determined by rear-axle/final-drive ratios, wheel/tire sizes, cooling-system capacity, braking capacity, suspension stiffness, and a number of other engineering factors, not just engine power alone. So, to just idly compare the 4.5 with the 5.7, without taking into account the other necessary factors, is probably just a case of apples and oranges. That is not what I was doing. But, in general, all else equal diesel engines produce less HP, more torque, at lower RPMs, than gas engines....that was I was getting at.
Wrong, owners in the North American market want both...
HP, of course, mathematically, is one of the factors in actual torque production
But actual throttle response, especially at low RPMs, which is what most drivers prefer, especially in America, is more a function of torque, not HP.
Wrong, owners in the North American market want both... And for a $100K, a Lexus LX diesel better clean 300-350hp
LX customers without a test drive will of course clamor for the big numbers in both HP and TQ.
But after a test drive, 479 lbs available from 1600 vs 3600 will be insane. The place where a diesel shows hints of weakness is the upper end, but usually an 8 speed or high gearing helps reduce that weakness. Towing will be no issue, if not limited by chassis more then engine.
FWIW that torque number is more then the eco diesel and the new XD lol
LX customers without a test drive will of course clamor for the big numbers in both HP and TQ.
But after a test drive, 479 lbs available from 1600 vs 3600 will be insane. The place where a diesel shows hints of weakness is the upper end, but usually an 8 speed or high gearing helps reduce that weakness. l
That is not true at all. In the past, Land Cruiser 5.7 and 4.5 have always been geared the exact same, the 5.7 has an eight speed now whereas in the past they have both had 6 speeds. In every single test, the gas 5.7 out performs the 4..5 (except MPG) 479lbs is nice and fine, no doubt about it. But the 5.7 still makes 401-403 and coupled with 100 more horses and pulling the same weight around, loaded or unloaded the 5.7 is the far superior performer.
The Cummings XD diesel model has 310hp and 555 lbs of tq, this is where a Toyota large SUV needs to be even have a remote chance in the USA.
I wasn't necessarily refering to the specific 4.5L, but diesel engines in general. Tow-ratings are also determined by rear-axle/final-drive ratios, wheel/tire sizes, cooling-system capacity, braking capacity, suspension stiffness, and a number of other engineering factors, not just engine power alone. So, to just idly compare the 4.5 with the 5.7, without taking into account the other necessary factors, is probably just a case of apples and oranges. That is not what I was doing. But, in general, all else equal diesel engines produce less HP, more torque, at lower RPMs, than gas engines....that was I was getting at.
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Well perhaps you should follow and look into what others are saying in the this thread, we are discussing the 5.7 vs the 4.5
That is not true at all. In the past, Land Cruiser 5.7 and 4.5 have always been geared the exact same, the 5.7 has an eight speed now whereas in the past they have both had 6 speeds. In every single test, the gas 5.7 out performs the 4..5 (except MPG) 479lbs is nice and fine, no doubt about it. But the 5.7 still makes 401-403 and coupled with 100 more horses and pulling the same weight around, loaded or unloaded the 5.7 is the far superior performer.
The Cummings XD diesel model has 310hp and 555 lbs of tq, this is where a Toyota large SUV needs to be even have a remote chance in the USA.
Misread the "Cummings" LOL on the website. More power always makes things better.
Point of note though
1) How long does the average person spend at 3600 RPM vs 1600 RPM?
2) If your utilizing the towing needs of the vehicle, would you want a diesel or a gasser?
3) Why would Toyota dump money into new powertrain testing at this point on a low volume truck, when the real money to be made is in pickups?
Misread the "Cummings" LOL on the website. More power always makes things better.
Point of note though
1) How long does the average person spend at 3600 RPM vs 1600 RPM?
2) If your utilizing the towing needs of the vehicle, would you want a diesel or a gasser?
Valid questions, but like I have said before, the 5.7 has 401 lb ft at a peak of around 3400 rpm. The 5.7 model performs exceptionally with a 0-60 mph of around 6 seconds in the Land Cruiser form. All evidence suggests that the 4.5 (although have 79 more lbs of torque) is a slower vehicle and both have the same curb weight.
If I were towing day in and day out, I would probably go for the 4.5. But at a $85K, I would want a Land Cruiser that much more HP that what the current 4.5 offers. And I would expect the torque rating to at least exceed 500 ft lbs.
LOL...Nice try..The link does not work. The 5.7 will destroy the 4.5. The 4.5 is not powerful enough and will not hold up to US markets.
I can't imagine that a Lexus with $100K price tag and a diesel with just 280hp would go over well. The 5.7 will out perform it.
Just an FYI, the Land Cruiser 5.7 has a higher tow rating than the Land Cruiser 4.5, it will haul better up hills and it and around tow.
I will give the 4.5 credit for MPG, but does that really matters at the 100k price point. And the 4.5 will be the better everyday hauler, but the 4.5 is still way too undersized for a 3 ton vehicle.
Interesting enough, the LX is supposed to be getting a 4.5 diesel option in some markets.
Here is your link. The diesel can tow 700 more pounds and the touring range is higher. That range extends to 1100 miles per tank with the reserve tank option.
08-02-16, 08:09 AM
