mmarshall

What's your definition of a "high-priced" vehicle? 40K? 50K? 60K? In some Third-World markets, such as those where subcompacts are sold costing less than 10K, your 19-20K Corolla (and certainly my Verano) would be considered prestige-cars.

Toys4RJill

That is not how it works. A Corolla is considered an entry level vehicle everywhere it is sold.

mmarshall

It is?............

If you saw some of the base-level vehicles sold in Europe/Japan and some Third World countries, you would see that a Corolla can be a lot more than just a basic entry-level car.

Here, for instance, is the Toyota Aygo, a minicar that is even smaller than the Yaris (it is sold overseas, but not in the U.S.). It is far smaller and more basic than any Corolla. A woman I know in Denmark bought one as her daily-driver.

Toys4RJill

Is Denmark a Third World Country?

Did I say basic? I said entry level vehicle.

Not sure if you really understand what you are trying to convey? The Yaris is North America is positioned below the Corolla. So where a few Scions.

Do you realize that the Toyota Yaris Hatch, Yaris, Sedan, Corolla, Camry, Rav4, Land Cruiser, Prado are all sold in Ethiopia?

mmarshall

That was my point. The Yaris undercuts the Corolla...and the Aygo undercuts the Yaris. The Corolla is not a true "entry-level" Toyota. That's easy enough to understand.

All that tells us that is that even in Eithiopia, the Corolla is not the lowest-level Toyota sold.

MattyG

Well without distracting from what the thread is about, in much of the Developing World - anything larger than a bicycle or a scooter is considered better-than-entry-level transportation.

For eg. - in India your lower middle class types are on scooters. Quite handy for navigating narrow rut and pot holed streets crowded by people, animals and traffic. They're advertised as good basic simple transportation... not all models come with a... model. You can get a Tata Nano with windows and seats so you sit inside after you've made some money. Your wife won't like the attractive model on the scooter coming along for the ride though.

Seriously though. The Envision is an attempt to leverage lower wages into bigger profits. It sounds nice for corporate and chamber of commerce types. But the problem is the ridiculous amount of corporate welfare that is sent from Washington to Wall Street or Detroit when greed overwhelms good judgement.

mmarshall

Yes, as usual, we all got off-topic LOL......but, indeed, you have a point. The Nano, especially, is a joke of a car by American standards.


Part of it (at least from an American point of view) is lower wages. But I also think that part of it is building it in what will likely be its home market. The Chinese are some of Buick's most loyal customers, and building the Envision locally in the country will probably keep the price down for them, as the vehicles will not have to be shipped across the ocean, like they will for the American market. The rather skimpy front seats in the Envisions I looked at, IMO, are another sign that this vehicle was primarily intended for the Chinese market and its generally smaller-size people....and was simply imported here so Buick could address the exploding demand for SUVs here.

In general, I agree. But, to this day, I'm glad that GM and Chrysler were rescued and saved from bankruptcy back in 2009....though Fiat, of course, also played a big role in rescuing Chrysler. Both GM and Chrysler are completely different corporations from what they were back then....and, in general, producing far better vehicles, though me and a few others here on Car Chat miss some of the big old American luxo-cruisers. One can call it corporate welfare.....in those two specific situations, I'd call it money well-spent.

Toys4RJill

So now that you have viewed the line up above, would you consider the Corolla a "prestige" car?

mmarshall

Compared to a Aygo or Yaris, yes. Compared to a Camry, Avalon, Auris, or other Toyota sedans, no.

I don't think we need to debate this all evening, Jill. You and I seem to basically agree on the Corolla's place in the Toyota lineup. And, as MattyG pointed out, we've gotten way off topic.

MattyG

Yeah, I think that's really the crux of it. Manufacture a vehicle as close to your real home market as you can. The Envision is a Chinese-made, Buick-engineered CUV that's meant for China's new and emerging middle-upper classes (gawd, I sound like one of GM's pitchmen... cue a Chinese Matthew McConaughey driving his Envision in Shanghai).

If the Envision meets US safety and emissions standards, obviously GM is going to want to sell it here. My main thing is, why is GM refusing to pass on the leveraged price cut or savings to consumers here?

And your static review about the seats... that's going to be really important for consumers in NA. If the seat doesn't fit than that's a lost sale right out of the showroom. Even in my ancient GS I can drive all day long and fit comfortably as a 6' plus person.

One of my biggest disappointments many, many years ago - was discovering that the fantastic rave-worthy Acura Integra Type R of the 1990's was basically designed and fitted for short Asian folks. No kidding. I used to be a car valet and promptly discovered that one of my bucket list vehicles could barely contain me and some oxygen. Fantastic vehicle but flawed because there was no way anybody over 5' 2" was going to shoehorn themselves into that car and not have to be extracted with a can opener.

Toys4RJill

Why would GM pass off the savings to the customer?

Toyota will not discount a ES350 now that they are built in the US compared to a same model that came from Japan

mmarshall

GM's doing some nice vehicles lately. Nothing wrong with giving them a compliment where it is due.

From what I understand (and per Buick) less-expensive versions of the Envision will be sold here next year, or maybe later this year. For now, though, they start around 42K.....actually more than the base-level Cadillac XT5, which is about the same size physically.

Not all Americans will necessarily find the seats too small to their liking, but, at 6' 2" (and let's just say heavy LOL) I certainly did. They were flat, uncomfortable, firm-padded, lacking any kind of bolster or support at all, and emitted a rather unpleasant odor. Certainly not what one would generally expect in a 40K Buick product sold in America. Other than that, though, the vehicle was generally impressive....and quite well-screwed together, which was more than I had expected, having heard so many horror stories about Chinese-plant quality control. Shows one of two things......either you can't always believe what you read, or this plant bucks the trend and is turning out well-built products.

The front seats of those old Integras weren't bad at all, but, yes, the back seats in the two-door coupe versions certainly weren't designed for NBA guys.

That Third-generation Integra, BTW (the one with the four small round headlights), was an extremely well-built car.......IMO one of the best that Honda or Acura has ever screwed together. An ex-co-worker/colleague of mine (he has since passed on from cancer) had a 1999 four-door with almost 200,000 miles on it, and still drove and operated virtually like new. I'd occasionally drive it home for him after cookouts at a friend's house on Friday night, when he'd have one or two beers too many, as I am a teetotaler, don't drink at all, and make a handy designated driver.

MattyG

I don't discount anything the Chinese do, certainly I know I own repair tools that are made in China, and frankly I don't know why I would pay extra for some NA brand name when it's already made there in the first place. Chinese manufacturing has come a long way for sure. UAW and Unifor need to watch and learn. Their $25 - $35/hr wages could be on the way out if the Envision proves to be a success.

The average Chinese auto worker makes about $2 - 3/hr. They work horrible 12 hr shifts in some cases. That's the crux of it. Will a consumer care? Not likely. Because we know where our smartphones, computers, tablets, headphones and tv's are made. We don't know under what wages and conditions they are made in.

Yep. It was fun to drive and that slick manual transmission made me want to rev and rev, but I was careful with it. Still, too small a car for me and my 6" plus frame. Not a good fit. OTH the 1998 Corvette and its snorting V8 had lots of room and it too was a manual. Drove great and stretch out room to boot Quality? Not so much.

For the same reason that VW of NA lowered its prices on the Jetta when it moved production for some of its vehicles to Mexico from Germany. Suddenly V-dubs were not some Yuppy snoot brand for people paying too much for a too small car that only car mags raved about. Suddenly you had a larger vehicle made for NA and cheaper than its predecessor.

Toys4RJill

I would actually be interested to know more about what you are talking about here, for my own knowledge. I did a search on Wiki and it says the Jetta has been built in Mexico as well as various other locations since the start.

Toys4RJill

I have no doubt that a Chinese built vehicle could be as good or even better than that of an American vehicle. Design, engineering, and the idea of planned obsolescence are factors, for example if GM really wanted to, I would have no doubt that they could design and build a car that could last as long as a Toyota. Many automakers reverse engineer and watch what the competition does. For example, my sister is an engineer in the aerospace industry, she would often explain to me how when she used to work on engine design, the idea of an engine that could not fail under any circumstance was a mandate. She would also explain how depending on what the competition is doing in a specific segment, a engine design could either have low, med, or high maintenance intervals.

Just think about it. How is that most vehicles today can go about 200,000. Is that a fluke? or are competitive factors having a role in everything. Why is it not 300,000 miles? Or how is it that maintenance intervals are now at a certain longer interval while a decade or two ago they were all at a shorter interval?

For Toyota, what reason did Toyota use a c-channel frame in their current line up of trucks while the rest of the world has Toyota's trucks with frames that are fully boxed? And is it a fluke that the last gen 95-05 Tacoma and 1st gen Tundra have frame recalls that require complete swapping out of the truck frame?