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When I lived in South Florida, my Infiniti dealer was in a crappy, dated, 90's-looking building, but they picked up my M45 at my house, dropped off a loaner car and brought back my 45, so I didn't care. They were 30 miles away.
My brother gets this kind of service from (of all things) a Kia dealership....on both his former Kia Soul and his present Sportage. One does not necessarily have to buy an upmarket brand to get excellent service.
My brother gets this kind of service from (of all things) a Kia dealership....on both his former Kia Soul and his present Sportage. One does not necessarily have to buy an upmarket brand to get excellent service.
The interesting thing about this, is that one of my aunties, probably the most ardent Toyota/Lexus buyers since the latter's inception in 1989, shockingly went from an LS600hL to an Equus Ultimate this fall (thanks to her husband).
Her first car in the US (while doing her US training), was a 1992 Camry SE V6 5-speed manual, which was replaced by a pearl white 1999 LS400.
She's a successful physician in Texas, that specializes in gynecology, endocrinology, and pediatrics, with 26 years behind her. Since then, her and husband have owned several LSes, Land Cruisers, a Sequoia, LX470s, and LX570s in both the states and in our home country. Oldest two daughters drive ES350s (23-25) and her son (22) a Tacoma TRD Sport.
For her own mysterious reasons, she chose to buy a brand new Hyundai Tucson Limited for her youngest (16) last July instead of the 2015 RAV4 and 2015 NX300h they looked at. This did not happen for budgetary reasons, as she's been a millionaire as well via her practice for quite some time, but I figure she fell out of love with Lexus upper offerings. I have not spoken to her this year, but my mother and sister relayed this news to me and I couldn't believe it.
The LS600hL was in their garage last time I visited them in July, so hearing that was puzzling. Apparently, she was won over by the concierge service and also how the car looked.
If Hyundai was able to sway her towards CURRENT Equus, a long time Toyota/Lexus buyer for more than 25 years, then there's no telling who else with this new G90.
Originally Posted by MattyG
Concept to real world car doesn't always translate because of safety, ride, handling requirements. Looks like BMW fans were hoping their 7 series had translated better into the real deal. Unless you have a way to stuff 20 inch low profile tires into a really low fender line, you have a ride problem.
But it's a great start for Genesis. Even the G90 moniker will settle with potential buyers. It will translate well across world markets without translation issues.
It's going to be interesting because if Genesis were to out-Lexus, Lexus and still steal some of the Germans' thunder - game changing scenerio.
That's not really what would call a "concept" or ideation sketch, as that really isn't one. The new Genesis G90 design would've finalised during the 2013 calendar year, so concept sketches would've been drafted during 2011-2013. "Ideation sketches", which are individually made by competing designers during the first half of programme development, unlike the teaser sketch.
The sketch above is mainly drawn long after a model's design freeze/styling sign-off, primarily for press materials or presentation purposes, usually done during the last several months prior to unveiling. I myself have been instrumental in getting many concept designs "dumb downed", in them being highly unfeasible for production and failing in safety tests. Folks like myself are supposedly the enemy of design departments, but in reality I work and will continue to work my hardest to ensure dreams come true for the design department.
If you are referring to the 2014 Vision Future Luxury Concept as not translating into the G11, I have said many times, that the new G11 7-Series design was frozen by July 2012. The VFL Concept project went into development around August 2013, so BMW did not base the 7-Series on that.
They based it on the design visions of Adrian van Hooydonk and winner Nader Faghihzadeh in 2011, that resulted in an internal G11 1:1 scale design concept. That become the production approved design 3 1/2 years ago, even though the new 7-Series barely just went on sale.
That VFL previews a potential 9-Series. BMW even settled on the next 3 Series (G20) design for 2018 last month, so any design work is done for that car, and nothing between now and G20 intro, will affect it. It was hinted one of G20 proposals resembled the VFL, but we'll have to wait next year to see that on prototypes.
Originally Posted by corradoMR2
I'm actually quite excited to see Hyundai will finally officially launch the Genesis brand. It surely won't have the same impact as Lexus did in 1990. However, with Genesis' luxury/value proposition, it will shake things up for the competition (esp the Japanese luxury brands) making it a win for the consumer in the end.
Any word on a dedicated dealer network? Or through existing Hyundai dealerships?
Actually, Lexus UK dealerships upon launch in June 1990 were being run out of a similar set-up like this. It is eons different now of course, as I am spoiled whenever I take my sister's NX300h in for service.
Why they didn't follow the US template initially, is my question of course.
Originally Posted by mmarshall
From what I understand, it will be through selected Hyundai shops right now. But, as more money and resources become available, through a separate dealer network.
Yes, that will hopefully for the sake of Genesis be gradually planned out, as Lexus eventually did in Europe. I have to wonder if Lexus' image in Europe was shaken by such a practice in the early 1990s. By the time GS300 was launched in 1993, I believe all Lexus UK dealers had their own showrooms in London, Birmingham, Edinburgh, and Manchester at least.
My father confirmed that Lexus of Birmingham had their own dealership by May 1994, when we briefly visited (after relocating to US years prior).
IDK about London, as Lexus Park Lane London existed for a very long time, shutting down a few years ago. As a kid, on return visits in the 1990s, I used to take note of the differences between LHD U.S.-spec and RHD UK-spec cars.
UK-spec Lexus products were always a little bit better looking (if not more upmarket) than U.S. versions. My maternal granduncle had an LS400 (RIP, passed in 1997) alongside his wife's 7-Series, which he cherished greatly.
Originally Posted by Mr. Burns
See when Jaguar did those tail lights in the XJ, the three lights were to represent claw marks, you know, from a Jaguar.
Hyundai's copy is a bit comical in that context.
Interesting how you noticed that design detail, as many people do not know that. The recent facelift might have been more substantial and might expanded on that cue, if not for the new model programme's high investment and Jaguar expansion. I have not been really enamoured of the X351 exterior and prefer the X360 already.
Originally Posted by Sal Collaziano
I often cheer for the underdog - which is what I did with Lexus for many years. We all know how so many people criticized Lexus for copying designs (Mercedes, BMW especially with the 2007 LS) and for this and that - but we also knew how great Lexus was/is as a brand. Now I'm doing (and have been for awhile now) the same for Hyundai and their Genesis Motors brand. I've had a lot of nice cars throughout the years and my 2015 Genesis Sedan is just about every bit as good as them. It's not "right up there" but only the pickiest people will know the difference. Corners need to be cut to bring a car like mine at a price point where I can buy it for $37k out the door. That was for a V6 with Signature package - an amazing deal. These are excellent automobiles and they're only going to get better...
I foresaw this as early as 2005 (1G Genesis was being developed), when I saw the first '06 Sonata on U.S. roads. It looked like an Audi B6 A4 and C5 A6 copy, yet a decent conservative design in V6 grade. My father rented one a year later (GLS V6), which I found to be very well done.
To my initial chagrin, that ironically became my first car (instead of a G35S, WRX STi, or Legacy Spec B.) some months later (Limited V6). At the time I was impressed by the quality compared to Hyundais of the '90s and early 2000s. It became very clear they were on a path of improving their brand image, slowly, but surely.
I mostly drive luxury vehicles all the time due to the nature of my work, so the few times I have been in the second generation Hyundai Genesis, I have been greatly impressed by the vast improvements that were made over the first generation. I can see why Lexus owners greatly appreciate and respect the efforts to put into it.
As for the copycat accusations, the original LS might been a reverse engineering of the W126, but it was not an outright design copy. It was moreover a blend of existent upper end Toyota styling cues and ongoing evolutions being developed in Toyota design studios during the mid-1980s.
When Toyota approved F-1/UCF10 concept design in September 1986 ( LS400), the X80 Cressida (1988-1992) was being developed parallel to the Lexus and S130 Toyota Crown well past finished. A lot LS400 design did come from them, but with a more modern touch.
The UCF10 / 1LS blended the design cues of the Toyota premium family, Mercedes-Benz W126, W124, BMW E32, and Toyota design concepts to make a conservative, yet appealing luxury saloon.
The second generation did somewhat attempt to emulate the styling changes made to the S-Class with the W140. I would say the spindle grille has very distant roots in the W140 S-Class. The facelift of 1997-2000 did emulate the W140 even more so, but downplayed certain inverted trapezoidal elements.
The W140 was recently accused on this forum of copying the 1990 LS400, which was wisely corrected by TangoRed, as the W140 was merely a styling evolution of the W126 and W124 designs, with elements of the R129 SL front fascia. The W140 design was frozen in 1987, the same year as the LS400, even though the latter came out 2 years earlier in 1989. Much of the car's design was approved in December 1986, 3 months after the LS400 concept.
XF30 LS430 was a blatant copy of the W140 S-Class (1991-98) profile and the front end of the C140 Coupe (1992-99). The XF40 was not necessarily as blatant with the E65 7-Series, but more of that with the E60 5-Series.
There are some that also tried to make the argument in late 2005 that the XF40 previewing LF-Sh concept, copied the KB1 Honda Legend (2005 Acura RL), introduced in early 2004. I believed this as a teen back then, not factoring in the XF40 development timetable.
The first sketches of 2007 LS (XF40), were drawn in 2002. The first full-size clay models were built in 2003 and final design frozen by the first half of 2004. There were even artists correctly rendering the 4LS design in late 2003-early 2004, basically 3 years before September 19, 2006 JDM launch. Someone had eyes on the inside at Toyota, that saw the 4LS clay model in 2003.
2003 LF-S previewed not only the 2006 GS (unveiled in Jan. 2004), but ongoing design work on the 2007 LS. L-finesse was created in 2001, the same year BMW unveiled the E65 7-Series that summer. 4LS development began that year. By the end of 2002, BMW's E60 5-Series was pretty much leaked in some form.
Thus, you are correct about the 4LS similarities to BMW, as Toyota did implement a better resolved solution on the 4LS for the bootlid, 2 1/2 year after BMW's E65 7er was unveiled. The taillight design very much borrowed from the E60 5er, finished with L-finesse design touches and creative license. However, that can easily be conjecture.
Who is not to say there were other 4LS proposals in 2003 that didn't take that direction, but management chose that one in the end that happened to be moderately derivative. The truth is, multiple competing 4LS designs were melded into the final product by 2004.
Originally Posted by Sal Collaziano
Thank you. I pop in every now and then to see what's going on with the next LS and if it'll be worth buying. I wish they'd update that old drivetrain. There are a few low points about the Genesis Sedan which I go over HERE. But overall - it's a great luxury sedan and I bet my little complaints will be taken care of once the G80 hits showroom floors...
Thanks, I will read it. I enjoy reading your posts and that of YEH (when he's fair and impartial). The new LS is a long way out, that Lexus has no choice but to deliver and leave nothing recycled over, except the new modular platform. The power trains of the LC will tell what the LS might get come 2017.
Originally Posted by Mr. Burns
Sorry but who did the 2007 LS copy?
The 4LS definitely took some creative license in co-opting much of the E65 aesthetic and also that of the BMW E60, first fully unveiled in 2003. The W140 and E65 were very popular in Asia, which very much shows in styling directions taken with certain LS generations.
Originally Posted by Sal Collaziano
It's alright, I'm sure I'm the only one.
If I remember correctly the Internet was exploding with references to the bangle butt.
No, you are not the only one. I do agree somewhat and pointed this out a little in the past.
Originally Posted by Mr. Burns
Because it's a common misconception.
The W221 S-class also had a bangle butt but no one called that a copy of the 7 series.
The LS460 was the second Lexus to debut with L-finesse, which was a unique design language ahead of its time.
That is not true, as some accused Mercedes-Benz of copying not only that, but BMW's I-Drive layout. As early as December 2002, this was leaked by the press. Just over 1 year after the E65 was unveiled and 2 1/2 years prior to the W221 press release.
L-finesse was inaugurated in 2001, coincidentally around the same time BMW expressed that their all models (in addition 7er) would take after this new styling language. The 4LS and W221 were not outright copies, but one cannot pretend there wasn't some inspiration for both parties. The 2IS was the second Lexus to debut with L-finesse, as the 3IS was designed and introduced before the 4LS. Despite some rather inconsistent information on XE20 development, it become very obvious to me the design was final by the end of 2003, just as the LF-S Concept was unveiled and some months before the LF-C preview at NYIAS 2004.
Originally Posted by mmarshall
Despite the fact that it started on the 7-series, and that Lexus and Mercedes both adopted it to an extent, IMO it didn't look good on ANY of the cars it was used on.
Yes, but while they both adopted it, I would say Lexus interpretation was very well resolved. The similar (less finessed) application to the sixth generation Camry (2006-11) design in 2004 however, was a little too close for comfort. As for the MB, some say that it was primarily styled after the Maybach 57 (and its concept), which does make some sense.
Originally Posted by Sal Collaziano
I feel the overall shape of the car (not the front end) is very similar but everyone sees something different. The point I was trying to make is that Lexus was also criticized for copying designs and they're doing fine today. If Genesis is copying designs I'm sure they'll be fine as well. I'd have never mentioned the 7-Series if I could foresee that it was going to completely derail the discussion...
Lexus was successful due to being revolutionary in the segment, unlike Hyundai/Genesis barely ruffling feathers outside of price/content. The concierge service is what will help the most, if they refuse to invest in separate facilities.
It is a good thing you mentioned the 7, as some like to pretend BMW wasn't a factor in how it was designed back in 2003. The shark fin antenna design was also borrowed from BMW. The 4LS was moreover a larger sized L-finesse copy of the E60 5-Series, not so much E65.
While some may believe my theory is absurd, I have believed that to be true for the past 10 years. Acura's 2005 RL is a non-factor (despite claims 8-10 years ago), as Toyota didn't it see until after LS design was pretty much done. The 3GS design was approved in 2002, when the E60 was still camouflaged. Lexus has very much co-opted BMW cues in the C-Pillar, with their own version of Hoffmeister Kink.
Originally Posted by Mr. Burns
The LS has been the only Lexus that you could criticize for copying throughout the years, and even then it's limited to the 1G LS400 and the LS430.
But we are in 2015 now where styling is playing a more important role.
The 1998 RX300 (XU10) was accused by a BMW executive/insider of copying the Mercedes-Benz M-Class. I tried to debunk that claim, but the truth is he might be right. MB had W163 prototypes testing in March 1995 with exposed C and D-Pillars, after which RX design was settled on in December 1995, with some further changes made last minute in June 1996...
The 2GS was accused of copying the W210 E-Class, which was teased in March 1993, leaked in late 1994, and unveiled in mid-1995. The 2GS design was approved in November 1995... In that case at least, one could say it is definitely an expansion on the Z30 SC coupe design cues (a Calty design from 1988-89). The RX, not so much. Makoto Oshima as chief designer, was terribly encouraging of derivative designs for Lexus/premium Toyota JDM products during the 1990s period of development.
The XE10 1IS was accused of copying BMW, which although not entirely incorrect, isn't inaccurate. I disagreed with that for a long time, realising that the Z3 roadster (unveiled in 1995), was the inspiration for the IS200 front fascia and E36 for the centre section. That 1IS design was frozen in 1996, before its 1999 launch. I have photos of the XE10 from 1996, pretty much looking the same as it did upon reveal.
The L10 GS, was very much influenced by the BMW E60 design as well. Bear in mind that the 4GS was mostly designed prior to the November 2009 unveiling of the incumbent F10.
Originally Posted by MattyG
Very true. The LS400 stole styling cues right off its Mercedes Benz target. The LS430 looks like a copy of a late 90's E class or a later S class.
The irony is that you don't see a lot of those years of MB around, because they were ridiculously flawed in terms of engineering for the long term. Now you see these LS cars around and people sometimes mistake them for MB (particularly the 430).
The Germans will always top the status/prestige and original style rivalry. The Japanese and now the Koreans will always win in the long run marathon for quality and reliability.
Really it comes down to what you want to say to the world when you're driving around in your world. My personal fave is the last LS400 - it just has so much presence. And you know it ain't no MB either.
The lack of W126 and W140 is also because have been exported en masse to countries outside North America. They were not particularly "flawed", unless you are referring to the W220.
The 1997-2000 LS400, was very much inspired by the W140 S-Class that you accuse of being "flawed". The XF30 was a full blown copy, using the C140 coupe front fascia. Some wrongly accused Lexus of copying the W220, which is doubtful considering the LS430 design was mostly done by December of 1997. The headlight cluster was inspired by the W220's at the last minute during 1998.
Originally Posted by rominl
hey good to see you sal, been a while! i have always enjoyed your posts!
funny you say that, when i first saw the 07 ls i said the same thing, the car got the 7 rear -- except that it finally came at the right time and lexus made it look better. and yup, at the time a lot of people commented the same about the rear being similar to the 7
all companies try to copy and learn from each other anyway, i don't see the big deal as long as they are making things better (like the ls460). it's amazing how some people get very sensitive when this topic is mentioned.
even the g90, i personally don't feel the rear is that much of a rip off of another car, but like you said everyone sees something different. i own a 4gs and since first sight i have thought it's a great copy of the sonata
I am not sure why many fixated on it looking like the 7, when it was more of an extended length E60 in L-finesse clothing and refinements. I agree with your sentiment about people being too sensitive, even in some instances when their assertions are highly unfounded and reek of intense bias.
Originally Posted by Mr. Burns
The LS460 looks nothing like the E65 7er aside from the bangle butt trunk, which a lot of other cars like the W221 S-class also have. The bangle butt was a design compromise made widely in the auto industry to accommodate cars having higher and higher rear decks than their shoulders. It was more of a compromise than a desirable styling decision.
The 7 series people compared the LS460 to was the F01, which came out after the LS460.
The above image is an ancient comparison made by BMW fanboys from BMW blog furiously defending against early claims that the LS and the F01 were similar. The F01 ironically didn't have a bangle butt (probably due to the huge backlash the E65 received), but you can see the second crease they had to add, from the trunk lid into the C-pillar, to visually mitigate the high deck low shoulder problem.
Today there are cars with design languages that dictate such high rear decks that both the bangle butt and the c-pillar crease need to be used.
Yes, it was a compromise. The bootlid was supposed to emulate that of the E46 introduced in early 1998, but with the new BMW styling language. Design models and sketches from 1998 showed that. The E65 concept was a sharply raked, sporty design back in 1998. The final article at the dawn of 1999, was an engineering compromise, as the front had been raised and rear needed to be as well. Due to the fact that the Rover losses restricted the E65 budget between 1999-2001, it meant no further changes.
The guy who wanted to (micromanage) iron out and eliminate those design engineering compromises, resigned in February 1999, and jumped ship to Ford Premier Auto Group. He at least carefully finished up his Range Rover L322 pet project from inception at BMW Group in 1995 to final production development at Ford.
BMW was accused of copying Lexus with the F01, which was further from the truth than anything. The F01 design was pretty much done 10 years ago, even though it had less than 7-year life cycle. The E65 facelift was released in March 2005, months before Karim Kabib's concept was approved in clay.
By the time the LS460/L got a full press reveal and comparisons were being made to the E65 7er, model programme F01 design work was frozen, ahead of production start-up in Q3 2008. The understandable argument made was the F01 was a corrective evolution of the E65's flaws, which isn't surprising seeing how Lexus might have taken the same approach, while incorporating E60 cues and refining them.
Even though I have gone far off-topic, I will say that the G90 comes across in some photos as disjointed. I do hope in looks better in person and more fluid. I am not bothered by the similarities to X351 XJ taillights, as they are also similar to W222 taillights as well and not the most obvious copy. This is Peter Schreyer's first luxury Hyundai product, since the current Genesis was designed over 1 year before he came to BMW. The upcoming XJ successor will be a more of a substantial competitor, which will shock many in 2 years time.
Last edited by Carmaker1; 12-05-15 at 12:47 PM.
Reason: Minor corrections, photo additions.
So why don't you tell the forum what you really think. Lol. I can grant you that some platforms came before others but out on the street most people will tell you that an LS430 sure resembles an E class from the late 90's.
Here's the question professor. Did US influence or for that matter British influence direct post war Japan into styling cars that look a lot like one type of car or the other? In order to project wealth and prestige you often take your cues from other places if you haven't been at it for a long time.
My own posts about MB merely refer to the fact no one who has an ounce of sanity owns a German car off warranty. Those used MB are eye candy but that's about it. And back on topic. Hyundai is suddenly doing something different despite having no history in the N.A. luxury car market like the major players. Not such a bad thing.
Maybe its the angle of some of these photos but I don't like it as much as I originally did with that spy shot of the G90 shooting a commercial. I'll have to give it some time. Interior looks pretty plush.
Do you have to put the G90 in Neutral first then hit Park?
Maybe its the angle of some of these photos but I don't like it as much as I originally did with that spy shot of the G90 shooting a commercial. I'll have to give it some time. Interior looks pretty plush.
looks like a stretched sonata-genesis-k900. i don't think it's particularly attractive or much 'wow' but the interior looks incredible.
looks like name is EQ900?
Do you have to put the G90 in Neutral first then hit Park?
assume you just hit the P button? doubt the shifter stays in R or P positions, you just push forward or pull backwards and it returns to the middle? but if that's so how do you get to N? with my jeep it's similar and there's an indicator in the instrument panel showing what gear (or N) you're in.
i hope not, iirc on the s class you can go to P from R/N/D. though i can see what you mean, the shifter location is confusing
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
looks like a stretched sonata-genesis-k900. i don't think it's particularly attractive or much 'wow' but the interior looks incredible.
looks like name is EQ900?
assume you just hit the P button? doubt the shifter stays in R or P positions, you just push forward or pull backwards and it returns to the middle? but if that's so how do you get to N? with my jeep it's similar and there's an indicator in the instrument panel showing what gear (or N) you're in.
Originally Posted by pbm317
Korean market name is EQ900. in the U.S. it'll be G90.
You can just hit the P button. Just like with any of the electronic shifters out there today.
In the Prius today, lots of people just turn the car off, and it will automatically put it in Park mode.
After reading your responses I immediately thought of the CT200h (Prius shifter) where the lever just returns to a natural position once you make your gear selection. Thanks gents
Still begs the question of how to engage neutral considering the natural position of the shifter is, well, neutral lol.
Just like the other joystick shifters of this ilk, you just give it a soft bump up or down (depending on which gear you're going from). A firm push upwards and downwards gives you reverse or drive. The detents make the action obvious and it doesn't take long to master at all.
A half dozen online pics of the rear seats, but no pics of the dashboard? I can't seem to find one anywhere.
Overall, the body looks decent, but nothing we haven't seen for the last eight years. I don't believe it's going to stay fresh and interesting long enough to keep people coming in after a few years. This is the same problem the Equus and Cadenza have. They make a pleasant first appearance, but fall off quickly into the shadows. If these car companies cannot break that habit, they are going to be spending extra money on rushed and more drastic changes sooner than their competitors have to. Not a good business model.
Taillights are the worst styling feature. I thought el cheapo Nissan Versa before thinking Jaguar.
12-03-15, 08:16 PM
As a kid, on return visits in the 1990s, I used to take note of the differences between LHD U.S.-spec and RHD UK-spec cars.
The recent facelift might have been more substantial and might expanded on that cue, if not for the new model programme's high investment and Jaguar expansion. I have not been really enamoured of the X351 exterior and prefer the X360 already.
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i don't think it's particularly attractive or much 'wow' but the interior looks incredible. 
