Johnhav430

That's strange, seeing as I own a 335i. A V6 over a I6 would be one consideration, then the way it drives would be the second. Stranger things have happened, I mean truth be told every event I've been to, BMW deliberately brought a FWD A4 to exaggerate the fact that it's a FWD based AWD. Of course if you're talking 2012 and newer 335, that's no good, maybe that's what you mean.

But as far as Lexus becoming an Acura, the couple of times I went to the dealer, the avg age was probably well over 60, and then even the level of enthusiasm was not that strong. The customer service was impeccable, but what would you expect when they want $1400 to do a $300 indie job.

I'll say it again, I can't get over that they charged me $59 to flush the brakes, that's cheaper than a muffler shop. But I have a feeling they didn't do the work properly, unfortunately.

Johnhav430

Its torque is awful, and far less usable than the other cars listed above. We all realize that's because the HP is rated at an unusable rpm. Look at the GM 3.6--no matter what HP you want it to show for marketing purposes, it cannot get over a certain torque number. The IS is no different.

EZZ

I'm referring to the F30 chassis and yes, its no good. The last gen E90 was a better car but I have 2 friends that had to lemon it cause of an electrical issue and a fuel pump issue so its not a perfect car either. The IS350 F-sport is one of the better handling cars in its class but its weakness has always been its engine. For me, handling is more important but I can see the argument for more power is better too.

EXE46

Handling trumps power, even with my lowly is200t, I can out drive some of these wanna-bee drivers in their higher horse power cars. Many simply buy them for bragging rights, the power is beyond their capability. IS350 is more than capable for the street, which is where 99.99% of these cars are used.

Johnhav430

Put it this way, I'm signed up to auto cross the new 5 series at the old Giants Stadium next month. If Lexus or Acura were to hold such an event, say for a new LS500 or whatever, the event would be a waste of marketing dollars. The enthusiasm doesn't exist. But in 1989, it had potential. Today, they likely should do what they do best. Build premium reliable cars. Imho Lexus is not truly competing with BMW or MB at the high end, there is no amg or M. And yes if not careful, Acura will be the competition...

SW17LS

You don't think if Lexus had an event with the LC and a road track there would be enthusiasm? I think there would be...the LS would be the wrong choice of car for the event...but the LC?

I see lots of enthusiasm out there, hell you guys just had a HUGE Lexus meet at my local dealership, what were there 90 cars?

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

At 306hp/277lbft (IS350), 311hp/280lbft (GS350), the 2GR-FSE is still one of the most stout naturally aspirated V6's in the market in regards to torque. GM 3.6, Infiniti VQ can get the hp but not the torque without higher displacements.

peteharvey

Sure Steve, I'm no universal judge on styling, and I've done no quantitative polling either, but I do have a "rough" idea of the general consensus on styling.
Just look at the sales; it is well behind.
Acura RLX 2016 @ 1,478
Infiniti Q70 2016 @ 5,872
I'd much rather have a Hyundai Genesis G80 which is much more popular at around 30,000 units/year.

Without doing scientific polling or reverting to sales figures, you don't need to be an Einstein to tell that the 5LS sedan has much more negative styling opinions than the forthcoming Lexus LC coupe.

SW17LS

So you have insight into the consensus on styling among the entire buyer population? You should go offer that service to carmakers then...they spend tens of millions of dollars trying to figure out what you seem to just understand organically.

Again, point is you are assuming that the reason for that sales disparity is styling and styling alone...when in reality the RLX and Q70 are old, tired and just in general behind their competitors in a wide variety of ways.

IMHO the Q70 is one of the best looking cars in its segment. But, its old, technology is totally out of date, and overall the car is less appealing than its styling.

And here's the question, when the LC coupe sells 4000 units next year and the 5LS sells 15,000 will you say the LS is better styled? In reality it won't have anything to do with that.

MattyG

I have not seen such sales projections. Is this factual or is that your "opinion"? There are a lot of opinions (your's included) and then there are facts based on automotive sites that report sales numbers. Nobody will know how the LC and LS will sell at this point. All people can do is react to what they think about the cars. Likes/dislikes etc.

SW17LS

The sales projections for the LC are factual. They are only building ~ 400 a month, so multiply 400 x 12. They will sell all of them I am sure.

As for the LS, thats a little more opinion on my part. Looking at how the flagship luxury segment is today, if the LS can sell 15k units it will be #1 in the segment.

I have no issue with opinions, its the "reporting" on styling being good or bad as objective fact. In another thread this same poster said that styling was NOT subjective.

Look at the 5LS thread, there are an even number of people who like the styling, its just that the overall tone about new models here is negative, and positive viewpoints get shouted down by a few posters who repeatedly post the same negative viewpoint over and over again.

Sulu

Here we go again! Please do not pull Einstein into this; he must be rolling in his grave.

Once again, you are trying to use what you would call the science of polling to justify your personal, subjective opinion regarding styling. You are trying desperately to objectify something that is extremely subjective.

What you are actually doing is trying to measure something that is currently fashionable. If you conduct polls about what is fashionable, it is easy to get positive results, but then, it is easy to get favourable results if you know what question(s) to ask and how to ask them. That is manipulation, not true science.

A style becomes fashionable when it is easy to see that many people agree with the style. That does not mean that it is a "good" style; there will be people who agree that a fashion is stylish just because everyone else is doing so -- that is herd mentality; these people are actually afraid to be seen to be different from the crowd.

Since style is subjective, there is no good and there is no bad, there simply is. It is extremely easy to follow the current fashion, and those designers (including automotive designers) who do follow the herd become labelled as "good"; those who dare to not follow the current fashion (think of Toyota Camry or Lexus LS) are scorned and condemned. It takes great courage to go against current fashion. It does not mean that the style is "bad"; it merely means that it is "out of fashion".

peteharvey

That's the key Sulu.
What is subjective as one person's opinion, becomes objective when measured across a large sample number.
The manufacturers with their internal polling will have a more accurate idea of the effect of their styling on their sales.
We as the public, have no access to such internal polling data.
We only have a very "rough" idea from the number of positive/negative posts on forums.
At the end of the day, styling is quite high on most buyers priority, and therefore has a strong effect on sales.
I am not surprized at all that the smarter looking Hyundai Genesis G80 outsells the Infiniti G70 & Acura RLX by such a large margin.

Sulu

No, it does not. It is merely herd (or bandwagon) mentality. Something as subjective as a response to style and fashion does not suddenly become objective if the "right" number of people agree with it.

You have an opinion, that has likely changed, and you are merely trying to justify your change of opinion by invoking "science" and objective measurements. That shows your own lack of confidence in your opinion (afraid that others may disagree with you). Give it up.

SW17LS

And the bottom line is you have no idea what manufacturers internal surveying says, even though you speak as if you do, and you have no idea if "you not liking the styling" is the cause of why certain models don't sell as well as other models, even though you speak as if you do.

You are assuming that those surveys reflect your opinions and you are assuming the majority of people around you share your opinions and that's why they buy the way they do. You have no legitimate reason to assume that.