RNM GS3

Any consideration for Subaru Legacy with the 3.6 Flat 6?

I have been extremely impressed with our Legacy Sport and it only has the 2.5 4cyl.
The ride is extremely comfortable especially over some of the worst roads in NYC, plus great AWD that handled snowstorm without a sweat, handling is very good, steering is very direct and heavy (for its segment) especially compared to ES which is what i prefer.

SW17LS

This is a Lexus forum but that doesn't mean all of us have to buy nothing but Lexus vehicles, and like only Lexus vehicles, and think Lexus makes the best product in every category. While I certainly agree with you that it's unfair for the tone about Lexus to be relentlessly negative, which I have voiced here that I think it often is, nothing like that has gone on in this thread IMHO. Many members here in CarChat do not own Lexus vehicles or no longer own Lexus vehicles, and al long as they aren't ragging in Lexus unfairly whenever they can (which I agree does happen here sometimes), what's the issue? Expressing a preference for another vehicle is not "ragging on" Lexus.

The ES is much more a "Toyota" than a G80 is a "Hyundai". The ES is basically a Toyota Avalon, same platform, same engine, same transmission, they're basically the same car. The G80 however is not based on any Hyundai model, doesn't share an engine or power train, it's a very different car than the ES. Not to say the ES is bad, it's just much more an entry level vehicle than the G80 which is a more substantial transverse/RWD car more similar to more expensive cars like the GS or 5 Series or E Class. You get that sort of car for ES money which is where the Genesis value proposition comes in. Same as with the G90 you get an LS, 7, S Class car for loaded 5 Series money.

the only reason *I* would buy an ES over a G80 is brand, IMHO the G80 is a superior car but it doesn't carry with it the same panache the ES does, or the resale value that comes with that. Which matters more to you depends on you.

mmarshall

You're right that the Koreans are starting to out-Lexus Lexus at their own game. I did a full-review on a K900 some time ago. Yes, they are a bargain because of their low sales and low demand (dealerships would probably give them away), but the standard RWD and no AWD option doesn't cut it for me. For me, FWD or AWD is a must. I'm just not impressed with RWD winter traction, even with today's electronic traction-aids. And depreciation, right now, is still quite steep on a K900....its reputation with the public has not yet caught up with reality.

imrankh24

Ok I respect your opinion but I certainly disagree the thing is the g80 IS a Hyundai. Keyword is, the just changed the badging to put another car into there "luxury" brand. The es is not a Toyota, again keyword not. When Lexus started Toyota had no car that was a es that they just slapped Lexus badges on but that's what Hyundai did. I will agree the 5es was very much a gussied up Camry, and not cause I own a 6ES, but it is the least Camry and Toyota like es. It remember when it first came out even you said this. People who buy a es don't care or don't even know that it shares it's engine with an Avalon. Cause tbh that's where similarities end. Completely different design from inside out. Materials are also very different. And frankly idc if a Avalon is 42k cause when I sit in jt sorry to say it feels like any other car out of the Toyota showroom. I was actually sitting in Avalon the other day. Even my dad said you can't compare a Avalon and a es there just different cars and I totally agree with him. Steve you know that my dad is getting a Avalon cause I discussed in the es forum that I'll be switching wheels. He even said that 42k is too much for a Toyota. I tried convincing him on a used es but he said No it's to nice for what he needs it for. And I felt offended that you called my car a Toyota

mmarshall

Actually, Steve, by the seat of my pants, the G80 doesn't necessarily drive any better than an ES. Both, with the 3.8L G80, seem to have about the same level of ride/handling and drivetrain performance. But the G80's sense of solidity and quality is just worlds apart from an ES. No matter how Lexus tries to spin it, with the exception of the typically Lexus mirror-smooth paint job, the ES's materials just don't compare with the G80's. And I can say that with a fair amount of confidence....I'm not just talking nonsense.

(There's a reason why the G80 is now #2 on my list).

SW17LS

Yes, the G80 is a Hyundai, and the Lexus ES (and every other Lexus) is a Toyota. It's not offensive, it is what it is. My first Lexus said "TOYOTA" on all the window glass. Ever buy a part from a Lexus dealer? The boxes say Toyota. Lexus and Genesis are marketing divisions of their respective companies. When Lexus started they absolutely did have a car that was a Toyota they essentially slapped Lexus badges on, the Camry. Yes Hyundai sold the Genesis, but it was still a car priced similarly they just tried to sell luxury cars without the brand at first unlike how Lexus chose to operate.They used to sell every Lexus model in Japan under Toyota badging.

People used to to say the same thing about Lexus being a Toyota as a disparagement, and still do. Owning a Lexus and looking down on a Genesis for being a "Hyundai" makes no sense.

SW17LS

That solidity and quality is a huge part of why the G80 feels more substantial and upscale than the ES. I think the G80 feels a lot more solid on the road too.

imrankh24

Again not starting a fight I whole heartedly disagree with everything you just said. Apart from the es and rx (which I still don't think are toyotas). No other Lexus IS a Toyota. There is gs alternative no is alternative no ls alternative no rc alternative no gsf or rcf alternative no gx alternative no nx alternative. I can keep going on and on but I think you get my point. Lexus IS a real luxury brand it is always being compared to Germans. Sorry to burst your bubble genesis is no where near on Lexus or German levels. I mean couldn't they come up with a unique name? Genesis was a existing HYUNDAI car and they just made it into a brand. There was car called the Toyota Lexus. I think I've proven my point but my fellow "Lexus" forum members whole heartedly disagree. I've never seen this on any other forum other than this. And if ou wanna look at that way. Audis are nothing but Volkswagens then. Again please don't ban me from the car chat forum as I'm just stating my opinion and defending my favorite car brand that is "represented" by this forum. And also I have full rights to look down at genesis. People just don't know what it is yet except a Hyundai car. Lexus has finally gotten respect from people outside of this forum that it deserves.

mmarshall

I had an 2.5L Outback, which is essentially a raised Legacy wagon, for some six years (yes, even as a CL member...perhaps you might remember it). Absolutely stupendous winter vehicle....it literally laughed at anything nature could send at it. Arguably the best car-based AWD system in production. Reliability was OK, but not up to the hype written about Subarus in the auto press. And the dealer-service, while generally good, was not as good as what I later got at the Chevy/Buick/GMC shop. Part of the problem in my area is that the typical Subaru shop tends to be physically too small and lacking in facilities....they simply don't have the space or personnel to handle the amount of cars they have to service and repair.

RNM GS3

Every Lexus is based on a Toyota - just some are not sold in US.
Genesis is exactly what Lexus was back in 1989-1990.
Every brand shares parts - hell RollsRoyce has bunch of BMW parts all over it.
LX - Land Cruiser
RX - Highlander
GX - Prado
NX - RAV4
GS, IS, RC - Crown
CT - Prius
ES - Avalon

New LC and LS are on new platform, not sure which Toyotas will use it for JDM market.

I advise you to learn history of some of these brands to get a better understanding.

imrankh24

You know I'm not gonna even waste my energy on people who call themselves Lexus fans but have nothing good to say about it. I'm just gonna move on and not got banned from the car chat. And one last thing if you wanna bring up a crown I have not till this day heard someone say to a gs is or rc. "Nice Toyota crown" cause that car many people just don't know about imho.

SW17LS

Lexus is Toyota. You take that as an insult but it's not an insult, it is what it is. Lexus is not a company, it's a division of Toyota. Lexus vehicles are all manufactured by Toyota just sold under the Lexus name and in Lexus dealers. Yes, Audi is Volkswagen. Yes, Infiniti is Nissan. Yes, Acura is Honda. Yes, Genesis is Hyundai. It's not an insult, it's what they are.

Clearly this doesn't bother me since I've bought 6 of them. It shouldn't bother you either. My only point was looking down on Genesis because it's a Hyundai doesn't make any sense since Lexus is the same thing to Toyota.

LexBob2

This is probably the best thing to do.

geko29

You can disagree as vehemently as you want, but that doesn't make you any less wrong. The ES is an Avalon, and previous generations going back to the very first ES250 were Camrys. The RX is a Toyota Highlander with a slightly different body (less cargo space), and until recently was sold as the Toyota Harrier, with the EXACT same body.

Wrong again, on most counts. The GS started its life as the Toyota Aristo, and the IS as the Toyota Altezza. Even the LS began its life as the Toyota Celsior. All three Toyota models were eventually dropped as the Lexus brand went worldwide in the mid-2000s. In EXACTLY the same way that the Hyundai Genesis and Equus have been dropped as the Genesis brand launched with the G80 and G90. The GX is available as the Toyota 4Runner with a slightly less-tall body, and the Toyota Land Cruiser Prado with the identical body (spindle grille notwithstanding). The NX is better known as the Toyota Rav4, and the LX as the Toyota Land Cruiser. The no-longer-available SC was the same as the Toyota Soarer, and the first generation was very similar to the Supra. The HS was a hybrid version of the Toyota Avenesis

The RC is the only truly bespoke Lexus model I'm aware of, that has never been sold under the Toyota brand. One could argue about the CT having a different body shape than the Prius and Corolla/Matrix it's based on. But as SW15LS stated, there's nothing wrong with this.


This alone proves how little you know about the brand, as you've got it exactly backwards. Genesis was ALWAYS intended to be a luxury brand, in the same way that Lexus is. But with the auto market decimated in 2008, no responsible executive could pitch--and no bank would finance--a multibillion dollar launch of a new luxury brand and dealer network. Long-standing auto marques were being dropped left and right--Remember Oldsmobile? Pontiac? Saturn? Mercury? Plymouth? Hummer? Saab? Mitsubishi (cars)? Launching a new brand at that time was was a recipe for failure. So the already-completed first model was rebadged as a Hyundai and sold for several years while they waited for the market to recover.

You've proven *A* point, but I don't think it's the one you were trying to convey.

Quite true. VWAG is more adept than anyone at brand engineering and platform sharing. If you put 10 non-car-enthusiasts in front of a Cayenne, Touareg, and Q7, 0 or 1 would guess that they're the same car underneath the skin. Especially if they drove them. Even less likely that someone would notice that the R8 and Gallardo are the same car, or the tiny coupe TT-S and the 4-door hatch Golf R.

For the most part, everybody does it (platform sharing). It's way more efficient, and therefore results in better cars for less money. That doesn't mean there's never a reason to choose a Lexus, Audi, Infiniti, or Acura over their Toyota, VW, Nissan, or Honda cousins. But it also doesn't mean one should delude oneself about what they're driving, and develop some sort of superiority about it.

SW17LS

Just to further prove the point. Sitting in my Lexus right now, just took this picture. Look at the top. "MANUFACTURED BY TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION"