OK, Folks....Now it may (?) be my turn to go shopping.
03-24-17, 05:52 PM
#76
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
They're a lot better than they used to be. I agree the one in Chantilly isn't as stuffy as some of the others. BMW shops can be some of the worst of all....the brand spent so many years as the general top pick of the sport-oriented car-enthusiast mags that dealerships got used to the demand and prestige of their products, Now, those days are waning.
03-24-17, 05:54 PM
#77
Lexus Champion
I'm currently on my second Audi and I too have found the dealerships that I've dealt with to be friendly, responsive and laid back This certainly can and does vary by dealership though.
03-25-17, 09:28 AM
#78
Lexus Champion
I typically keep a car for 5-6 years, but my 5-year-old Verano doesn't have that many miles on it, is in virtually mint condition except for a few small sheet-metal dings from tree-nuts falling down (can't always avoid those, for several reasons), and has truly been an excellent car. I've probably had fewer repairs, even considering the mileage, than any other car I've owned (even my Lexus IS300)...most of my service visits have been routine oil changes and repairing tire-punctures from the crap lying on the roads around here. In addition, the Buick/Chevy/GMC shop I've dealt with has been excellent, (Buick scores first now, among mainstream brands, in dealer/customer satisfaction...almost as high as Lexus). My Verano isn't perfect...though well-built, with good hardware, and tomb-quiet in the wind/road noise department on smooth roads, its room is tight inside, it doesn't ride as smooth as I think a Buick should (thanks to the 18" 45-series tires), and the Ecotec 4 isn't as smooth as a V6.
So, as is typically the case every 5-6 years or so, I might be in the market myself later this year....or early next year. I had considered a new 2018 Verano, but the brilliant marketers at Buick decided to ****-can the American market with it and confine it to China (Thanks a lot, guys....what a way to treat your customers)
. Ditto for next year's Regal sedan...it looks like it will be shoved aside, here in the American market, for the Regal Hatchback and Wagon (though it cannot be denied that those are more useful body styles). So, in the Buick line, that will just leave the flagship LaCrosse for the American-market sedans. The LaCrosse, of course, is all-new this year, and benefits from some noticeable increases in build-quality over previous ones, though still lacking some of that Opel-derived solidness found on the smaller Buicks. It also has some quirky features....more on that in a minute.
So, this time, IF I decide to spring for a new ride (it might be sensible just to keep my present car a little more), I'll probably be going up a notch or two in size, sticking to a FWD sedan (I generally don't need an SUV, though I might take a good look at the upcoming Regal wagon). I could afford an expensive luxury car like a Lexus LS460 or Mercedes S550 if I really wanted one, but I generally choose not to spend that much on a car, and something that size, for me, would probably be unwieldy in my condo-parking spaces and the spaces in the places I usually shop.
I spend a good deal of my time advising others on car-purchases, both on and off the forum...but, as someone who acknowledges that he doesn't know it all, now it's my turn to ask your opinions here in Car Chat, and see what you think. Currently, my top three picks (not necessarily in that order) for three sedans in the $40-45K sedan department...the Buick LaCrosse, the Lexus ES350, and the Lincoln MKZ..........with the possible option of spending a little more and getting a Genesis G80 3.8L AWD (the less-expensive RWD version would not be an choice for me). I like all four of those vehicles, for different reasons. This list is not set in stone, though, by any means...I'm open to further considerations later in the year, and I have learned, from the past, that you sometimes end up in something that you never thought you would have (like when I bought my Outback some years ago).
Anyhow, for now, what are your opinions on the top three picks (with the Regal and G80 as possible alternatives)
BUICK LACROSSE (all-new for 2017)
Plusses: Excellent dealer service, semi-traditonal Buick ride/quietness (with the (18", not 20" wheels), increasing Buick reputation for reliability, better build-quality than previous version, rich wood or wood-tone trim inside, semi-cushy seat (not quite as cushy as the Verano's), complete set of engine gauges instead of idot-lights, superb fit/finish, AWD available on top versions, luxury-car-grade 6/70 and 4/50 warranty.
Minuses: Awkward E-shifter (although it does automatically go into Park when shut off and the doors are opened, a nice feature), non-defeatable engine idle-stop system, cheap-looking 4-spoke steering wheel and stalks, sophisticated Hi-per strut suspension only available with the stiff 20" wheels/tires.
LEXUS ES350 (last of current-generation 2017 version...a new one is coming next year)
Plusses: Industry-benchmark fit/finish, precision assembly at the plant, top-notch reliability, Interior room/comfort, quiet and smooth ride (though not as silky as with past versions), gem-like wood steering wheel, high level of dealer/customer satisfaction, low depreciation, not-too-garish Spindle-Grille compared to other Lexus models.
(Also, it would again make me a Lexus owner like a lot of you CL members LOL)
Minuses: Well-fitted but thin, tinny-feeling doors/trunk-lid/sheet metal, some cost-cutting inside with plastic trim-parts, annoying zig-zag-pattern shifter (but better than the E-shifter in the LaCrosse), suspension nice but not as soft as on previous versions (I like a soft ride).
LINCOLN MKZ (current-generation, face-lifted for 2017):
Plusses: Push-button-transmission shifter on the dash (IMO) easier and more convienent to use than the shifters in either the ES or LaCrosse, Dynamite-looking Continental front-end styling, good noise-isolation and softish ride on base-level tires, nice color choice, generally nice-looking interior trim, new ***** this year for volume and climate-control much better then previous finger/sensor-slides, AWD available even with base engine.
Minuses: Sold and serviced out of bread-and-butter Ford shops, looser assembly quality not quite up to Buick or Lexus standards, 2.0L turbo four base engine, though torquey, not up to luxury-car standards, some interior hardware cheaply done, large awkward-looking C-pillars impede some visibility, no N/A V6...one has to move up to the grossly overpowered 400 HP TT V6 and AWD.
So, right now, folks (though that could change), those are my three main considerations. I like all three of these cars, and choosing between them (or choosing something else) is going to be very difficult. Your thoughts?
Thanks for your input.
MM
So, as is typically the case every 5-6 years or so, I might be in the market myself later this year....or early next year. I had considered a new 2018 Verano, but the brilliant marketers at Buick decided to ****-can the American market with it and confine it to China (Thanks a lot, guys....what a way to treat your customers)
. Ditto for next year's Regal sedan...it looks like it will be shoved aside, here in the American market, for the Regal Hatchback and Wagon (though it cannot be denied that those are more useful body styles). So, in the Buick line, that will just leave the flagship LaCrosse for the American-market sedans. The LaCrosse, of course, is all-new this year, and benefits from some noticeable increases in build-quality over previous ones, though still lacking some of that Opel-derived solidness found on the smaller Buicks. It also has some quirky features....more on that in a minute.So, this time, IF I decide to spring for a new ride (it might be sensible just to keep my present car a little more), I'll probably be going up a notch or two in size, sticking to a FWD sedan (I generally don't need an SUV, though I might take a good look at the upcoming Regal wagon). I could afford an expensive luxury car like a Lexus LS460 or Mercedes S550 if I really wanted one, but I generally choose not to spend that much on a car, and something that size, for me, would probably be unwieldy in my condo-parking spaces and the spaces in the places I usually shop.
I spend a good deal of my time advising others on car-purchases, both on and off the forum...but, as someone who acknowledges that he doesn't know it all, now it's my turn to ask your opinions here in Car Chat, and see what you think. Currently, my top three picks (not necessarily in that order) for three sedans in the $40-45K sedan department...the Buick LaCrosse, the Lexus ES350, and the Lincoln MKZ..........with the possible option of spending a little more and getting a Genesis G80 3.8L AWD (the less-expensive RWD version would not be an choice for me). I like all four of those vehicles, for different reasons. This list is not set in stone, though, by any means...I'm open to further considerations later in the year, and I have learned, from the past, that you sometimes end up in something that you never thought you would have (like when I bought my Outback some years ago).
Anyhow, for now, what are your opinions on the top three picks (with the Regal and G80 as possible alternatives)
BUICK LACROSSE (all-new for 2017)
Plusses: Excellent dealer service, semi-traditonal Buick ride/quietness (with the (18", not 20" wheels), increasing Buick reputation for reliability, better build-quality than previous version, rich wood or wood-tone trim inside, semi-cushy seat (not quite as cushy as the Verano's), complete set of engine gauges instead of idot-lights, superb fit/finish, AWD available on top versions, luxury-car-grade 6/70 and 4/50 warranty.
Minuses: Awkward E-shifter (although it does automatically go into Park when shut off and the doors are opened, a nice feature), non-defeatable engine idle-stop system, cheap-looking 4-spoke steering wheel and stalks, sophisticated Hi-per strut suspension only available with the stiff 20" wheels/tires.
LEXUS ES350 (last of current-generation 2017 version...a new one is coming next year)
Plusses: Industry-benchmark fit/finish, precision assembly at the plant, top-notch reliability, Interior room/comfort, quiet and smooth ride (though not as silky as with past versions), gem-like wood steering wheel, high level of dealer/customer satisfaction, low depreciation, not-too-garish Spindle-Grille compared to other Lexus models.
(Also, it would again make me a Lexus owner like a lot of you CL members LOL)
Minuses: Well-fitted but thin, tinny-feeling doors/trunk-lid/sheet metal, some cost-cutting inside with plastic trim-parts, annoying zig-zag-pattern shifter (but better than the E-shifter in the LaCrosse), suspension nice but not as soft as on previous versions (I like a soft ride).
LINCOLN MKZ (current-generation, face-lifted for 2017):
Plusses: Push-button-transmission shifter on the dash (IMO) easier and more convienent to use than the shifters in either the ES or LaCrosse, Dynamite-looking Continental front-end styling, good noise-isolation and softish ride on base-level tires, nice color choice, generally nice-looking interior trim, new ***** this year for volume and climate-control much better then previous finger/sensor-slides, AWD available even with base engine.
Minuses: Sold and serviced out of bread-and-butter Ford shops, looser assembly quality not quite up to Buick or Lexus standards, 2.0L turbo four base engine, though torquey, not up to luxury-car standards, some interior hardware cheaply done, large awkward-looking C-pillars impede some visibility, no N/A V6...one has to move up to the grossly overpowered 400 HP TT V6 and AWD.
So, right now, folks (though that could change), those are my three main considerations. I like all three of these cars, and choosing between them (or choosing something else) is going to be very difficult. Your thoughts?
Thanks for your input.
MM
03-25-17, 11:12 AM
#79
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Putting aside where YOU would lean, I feel like those cars are all pretty close, and easy to live with. On the price variable, I would be willing to bet that the Buick would have the most incentives, to bring the price down, which is very often the case for GM cars. Maybe by the time you are in the market, the Lincoln will too--it all depends on how well it sells. I don't think Lexus usually has to do that.
My ownership experience with Buick (and, specifically, my dealer and regular service advisor) has been nothing short of superlative...far better than anything I ever experienced with Lexus when I owned my IS300, though, admittedly, that Lexus experience was some years ago. If it were a question of that alone, it would be the LaCrosse, hands-down, without even a contest. But the LaCrosse has some quirks that my Verano didn't...a design / platform that may not be as reliable as the Verano's Opel-dervied design, an engine idle-start/stop system that cannot be turned off (that's a feature one would not want in heavy traffic or stop-and-go driving, where it would place a lot of wear on the starter motor and starter-clutch), and worst of all, the awkward and confusing E-Shifter. The non-hybrid ES and MKZ versions avoid those quirks and have what IMO are easier-to-use shifters, though the MKZ's overall reliability may be in question....I am not impressed with the way it comes assembled out of the factory. But all three cars drive nicely, and in a price range that I'm willing to look at. And the ES, of course, would probably offer bulletproof reliability.
Since the 2Gen 2018 Verano is leaving the American market (bound for China), and the new 2Gen 2018 Opel-derived Regal bows this fall or early next year, I might (?) wait some more months and look at the new Regal before buying a LaCrosse, MKZ, or ES. Rumor, though, has it that it will be Hatchback/Wagon only in the American market...no sedan (Buick is still officially mum on that). Bummer....although one cannot deny the usefulness of the wagon body style. And, yes, it will have a conventional shifter.
03-26-17, 05:02 AM
#80
Lexus Champion
Thanks for your input.
My ownership experience with Buick (and, specifically, my dealer and regular service advisor) has been nothing short of superlative...far better than anything I ever experienced with Lexus when I owned my IS300, though, admittedly, that Lexus experience was some years ago. If it were a question of that alone, it would be the LaCrosse, hands-down, without even a contest. But the LaCrosse has some quirks that my Verano didn't...a design / platform that may not be as reliable as the Verano's Opel-dervied design, an engine idle-start/stop system that cannot be turned off (that's a feature one would not want in heavy traffic or stop-and-go driving, where it would place a lot of wear on the starter motor and starter-clutch), and worst of all, the awkward and confusing E-Shifter. The non-hybrid ES and MKZ versions avoid those quirks and have what IMO are easier-to-use shifters, though the MKZ's overall reliability may be in question....I am not impressed with the way it comes assembled out of the factory. But all three cars drive nicely, and in a price range that I'm willing to look at. And the ES, of course, would probably offer bulletproof reliability.
Since the 2Gen 2018 Verano is leaving the American market (bound for China), and the new 2Gen 2018 Opel-derived Regal bows this fall or early next year, I might (?) wait some more months and look at the new Regal before buying a LaCrosse, MKZ, or ES. Rumor, though, has it that it will be Hatchback/Wagon only in the American market...no sedan (Buick is still officially mum on that). Bummer....although one cannot deny the usefulness of the wagon body style. And, yes, it will have a conventional shifter.
My ownership experience with Buick (and, specifically, my dealer and regular service advisor) has been nothing short of superlative...far better than anything I ever experienced with Lexus when I owned my IS300, though, admittedly, that Lexus experience was some years ago. If it were a question of that alone, it would be the LaCrosse, hands-down, without even a contest. But the LaCrosse has some quirks that my Verano didn't...a design / platform that may not be as reliable as the Verano's Opel-dervied design, an engine idle-start/stop system that cannot be turned off (that's a feature one would not want in heavy traffic or stop-and-go driving, where it would place a lot of wear on the starter motor and starter-clutch), and worst of all, the awkward and confusing E-Shifter. The non-hybrid ES and MKZ versions avoid those quirks and have what IMO are easier-to-use shifters, though the MKZ's overall reliability may be in question....I am not impressed with the way it comes assembled out of the factory. But all three cars drive nicely, and in a price range that I'm willing to look at. And the ES, of course, would probably offer bulletproof reliability.
Since the 2Gen 2018 Verano is leaving the American market (bound for China), and the new 2Gen 2018 Opel-derived Regal bows this fall or early next year, I might (?) wait some more months and look at the new Regal before buying a LaCrosse, MKZ, or ES. Rumor, though, has it that it will be Hatchback/Wagon only in the American market...no sedan (Buick is still officially mum on that). Bummer....although one cannot deny the usefulness of the wagon body style. And, yes, it will have a conventional shifter.
As for the new Buick shifter, I haven't used it, but it looks similar to my BMW's shifter, which took all of 3 days to get used to--now it's second nature to operate it.
03-26-17, 08:32 AM
#81
Dysfunctional Veteran
My problem with Buick, and GM in general, is they can't seem to get away from the cost-cutting. For the prices they are (still) charging for their cars (and yes I am talking MSRP to MSRP, I am aware generally people can get in them much much cheaper), the build quality of the imports far surpasses the GM products for nearly the same money, every time.
03-26-17, 10:38 AM
#82
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
My problem with Buick, and GM in general, is they can't seem to get away from the cost-cutting. For the prices they are (still) charging for their cars (and yes I am talking MSRP to MSRP, I am aware generally people can get in them much much cheaper), the build quality of the imports far surpasses the GM products for nearly the same money, every time.
However, reliability questions aside, I like the LaCrosse for its smooth ride (on 18" tires, not the optional 20s) and interior space......something that the (yes, more reliable Verano) doesn't match, though I notice the Verano's ride is a lot smoother in hot weather when the tires are hot and the rubber is soft. The problem with the Verano is that IMO it should have gotten 15" or 16" wheels and higher-profile tires from the start, but, like with most sedans today, the designers focused more on steering response, and gave it the 18" with 45-series tires. Other than that, though (and a cramped rear seat, though I rarely carry people in back), it is an excellent sedan.
03-26-17, 10:48 AM
#83
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
i know your early post said it must be fwd but then you included the g80 in the mix which didn't make sense to me.
just a bit confused from your comments, because you have lacrosse in the mix but say CR's reliability ranking is not that great, which i thought is an important factor to you.
03-26-17, 11:40 AM
#84
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Still on the radar...but not on the top 3 or 4 places
You probably didn't follow all my posts. It's either FWD or AWD (no more RWD......not enough traction in the winter). The G80 has an AWD option on the 3.8L...and next year for the 5.0L, though that one will be quite pricey.
The former Lacrosse (which was not Opel-based), had, according to CR, an average reliability record. The 3Gen 2017 is still too new to have much in CR's reliability data base....buying one would clearly be rolling the dice.
What I'm probably going to end up doing is keeping my present car and look at something new towards the end of the summer. Or, I may decide to keep it longer....I would like to at least see the new 2018 Regal (sedan/hatchback/wagon?) before making any major decision.
i know your early post said it must be fwd but then you included the g80 in the mix which didn't make sense to me.
just a bit confused from your comments, because you have lacrosse in the mix but say CR's reliability ranking is not that great, which i thought is an important factor to you.
What I'm probably going to end up doing is keeping my present car and look at something new towards the end of the summer. Or, I may decide to keep it longer....I would like to at least see the new 2018 Regal (sedan/hatchback/wagon?) before making any major decision.
03-26-17, 02:31 PM
#85
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
how will you judge the 2018 regal when CR won't have any data? and it looks like it will have a bmw-like shifter?
Last edited by bitkahuna; 03-26-17 at 02:39 PM.
03-26-17, 03:23 PM
#86
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Here's the 2018 Opel Insignia interior...the 2018 Regal will probably be almost identical except for a Buick logo on the steering wheel. You can see that the shifter is thoroughly conventional....pretty much like the one in the current Insignia/Regal. (I know.....it even has that stitched-leather boot-covering that you don't like LOL)
. I also like the fact it uses an almost full set of engine gauges like the new LaCrosse...including tach, oil pressure, coolant-temperature, and voltmeter....and an option for a secondary digital speed-readout inside the analog speedometer if desired. Usually, you find a set of gauges this good only in upper-level sports/high-performance cars or pickup trucks....Buick is now including it in even family sedans.That's actually a better-looking steering wheel, IMO, than the new 2017 Lacrosse's awkward and cheap-looking, 4-spoke design.....but the LaCrosse's overall trim-level (especially with its large swaths of wood-trim) is significantly more plush-looking.
Now, all they need to do is commit to a sedan version, though I'm (somewhat) open to the wagon or hatchback if that is the only choice.
Last edited by mmarshall; 03-26-17 at 03:49 PM.
03-27-17, 09:31 AM
#87
Lexus Fanatic
All the cars you listed seem pretty good, of them all based on what you write about I think the Lacrosse is the car you would be most happy with since you were very happy with your current Buick. I would also take a look at the Acura TLX SHawd since you value awd systems, it has the best on the market and they are offering good deals on them. A Genesis G80 is probably worth a look too, they are good looking cars and are getting more popular.
03-27-17, 04:01 PM
#88
Moderator
I'm sure if Mike (1Sicklex, Lexfather, Mikeavelli, Blueprint, Mike@Vossen, etc.) were to give an opinion it most likely would be the ES. Now you have two choices either the ES 300h or ES 350. I'm not sure is mpg's is a big factor for you since you are retired. I personally love the ES. I had a 1996 ES 300 and took her to over 400K miles before she got rear-ended. If she hadn't been rear-ended I'm sure I'd be at 500K-600K miles by now. Have you asked this same question over at Lexus Enthusiast? You should do a poll to see what people are leaning towards.
Last edited by Trexus; 03-27-17 at 08:21 PM.
03-27-17, 04:16 PM
#89
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
BTW...he also, at one time, went by the name Blueprint....you forgot that one.
I had a 1996 ES 300 and took her to over 400K miles before she got rear-ended. If she hadn't been rear-ended I'm sure I'd be at 500K-600K miles by now.
Have you asked this same question over at Lexus Enthusiast? You should do a poll to see what people are leaning towards.
I might (?) do a poll once closer to actual shopping time.
03-28-17, 11:25 AM
#90
Lexus Test Driver
Have you considered the CT6 or CTS?
Both are very nice and and ride very smooth. Both should be a nice step up from Buick and way superior to an ES.
You can get crazy discounts on them that should put them well in your budget.
My other choice would be the G80.
Both are very nice and and ride very smooth. Both should be a nice step up from Buick and way superior to an ES.
You can get crazy discounts on them that should put them well in your budget.
My other choice would be the G80.