Lexus expanding the "no haggle" programs
#106
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by mmarshall
What about all the customers who haggle and still end up paying more? You will (likely) respond that one simply isn't haggling or bargaining hard enough. Sometimes that might be the case.....but one cannot haggle below what the dealership is willing to offer, any more than the dealership can force you to come up higher if you don't want to.
As to "my ulterior motives" oh please lol. What ulterior motives? I'm a consumer and I want the freedom to be able to have independent dealers compete for my business so I can pay less. How sinister.
My question would be gengar you're pushing this so hard and are so dismissive and insulting to people who don't think this is a good idea, what is YOUR ulterior motive?! You say you have no intention of buying a Lexus again anytime soon, why do you care what they do? I buy one every 2-3 years.
Last edited by SW17LS; 05-20-17 at 03:07 PM.
#107
Lexus Fanatic
I didn't mention your ulterior motives, Steve......you replied to the wrong poster. I only mentioned the haggle-vs.-price relationship.
#108
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by mmarshall
I didn't mention your ulterior motives, Steve......you replied to the wrong poster. I simply mentioned the haggle-vs.-price relationship.
#109
Lexus Test Driver
As to "my ulterior motives" oh please lol. What ulterior motives? I'm a consumer and I want the freedom to be able to have independent dealers compete for my business so I can pay less. How sinister.
My question would be gengar you're pushing this so hard and are so dismissive and insulting to people who don't think this is a good idea, what is YOUR ulterior motive?!
My question would be gengar you're pushing this so hard and are so dismissive and insulting to people who don't think this is a good idea, what is YOUR ulterior motive?!
Second, I've already stated I could care less what sales scheme Lexus or anyone else uses. With Lexus specifically, I have absolutely nothing to gain or lose - again, as I've already stated - because I have no interest in purchasing any current or announced Lexus models.
Finally, I am not at all dismissive of people who are skeptical of the no-haggle scheme, and I've been happy to engage them throughout this thread. What I have been dismissive of is your continual, irrelevant or outlandish (if not absolutely ludicrous) reasoning and attempted justifications. I'd reject them regardless of which side you were attempting to promote.
#110
Lexus Fanatic
I don't see how my viewpoint is at all outlandish or off topic, what have I said that's outlandish? I believe that going to a no haggle system will reduce competition between dealers on price, because prices will be standardized in a geographic area. For instance, now I can get quotes from 5 local dealers and select the one willing to offer the best price. If this becomes the standard for Lexus dealers, prices won't be much different between dealers in a similar geographic area...which I feel will mean we will pay more. Less competition overwhelmingly means higher prices for consumers. I don't think that my reasoning is outlandish here.
#111
Lexus Test Driver
Look, I get that you don't want Lexus dealerships to change. I get that you enjoy negotiating. I get that it makes you feel good when you get a price lower than invoice. All the more power to you. It doesn't mean that you have to say some crazy stuff to defend it.
#112
Lexus Fanatic
I do not see how anything I've said is crazy lol. Yes, I do believe independent competing dealers would reduce prices for consumers for Teslas. May cost Tesla profit. I think it's naive to expect that a company will pass savings gleaned from the lack of a dealer network on to consumers.
I don't love negotiating, and I don't do it to feel good. I do it to know that I've got a fair price for the car by comparing offers from people competing for my business. Does this all make me "insane" as you've described me? Ridiculous.
I don't love negotiating, and I don't do it to feel good. I do it to know that I've got a fair price for the car by comparing offers from people competing for my business. Does this all make me "insane" as you've described me? Ridiculous.
#114
Lead Lap
At the same time I leased my IS, I was looking at an Audi S3 that I really wanted and it was a similar deal, about $8-9k off MSRP. If that dealer was a no haggle dealer, I have no doubt in my mind the price wouldn't be close to what I was able to negotiate.
I am the same as SW15LS, I don't like haggling but I work hard for my money so I try and get the best deal I can. I think even if Lexus dealers in my area adopted no haggling, people could still haggle, it would just cause me to make a few phone calls. No different than people and even dealers that say Rolex's or high end appliances (Wolf/Subzero) aren't allowed to be discounted, I have negotiated discounts on them (with the exception of the new Daytona).
#115
Lexus Champion
So, if Lexus Plus becomes more widespread, what will differentiate one dealer from another in areas where there are multiple dealers?
Customer service? As I understand it, there is one point of contact through the entire process. Personnel who are better trained?
Service Department? Buyers who buy or lease might be more comfortable jumping to another dealer for service since there wouldn't be many concerns about loyalty to a particular sales team.
Convenience? No need to go any further than you have to get a new Lexus, unless a dealer further away has the car you want in inventory.
Trade ins? Is this an area where individual dealers have the flexibility to "sweeten the deal" with a better offer than another dealer?
Overall an interesting dynamic if Lexus Plus spreads around the country.
Customer service? As I understand it, there is one point of contact through the entire process. Personnel who are better trained?
Service Department? Buyers who buy or lease might be more comfortable jumping to another dealer for service since there wouldn't be many concerns about loyalty to a particular sales team.
Convenience? No need to go any further than you have to get a new Lexus, unless a dealer further away has the car you want in inventory.
Trade ins? Is this an area where individual dealers have the flexibility to "sweeten the deal" with a better offer than another dealer?
Overall an interesting dynamic if Lexus Plus spreads around the country.
#116
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by patgilm
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I am the same as SW15LS,I don't like haggling but I work hard for my money so I try and get the best deal I can.
I am the same as SW15LS,I don't like haggling but I work hard for my money so I try and get the best deal I can.
#117
Lexus Test Driver
Again, just to be clear - Lexus Plus is a no-haggle system, not a one-price system. A Lexus Plus dealer can still compete with other Lexus Plus dealers on price.
#118
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by gengar
Again, just to be clear - Lexus Plus is a no-haggle system, not a one-price system. A Lexus Plus dealer can still compete with other Lexus Plus dealers on price.
Dealers essentially do this now. Lots of dealers have a "internet price" or a "mark down price" on every car which is displayed on the car. You can do significantly better than this price now though with little effort. If all dealers adopt LexusPlus, you won't have this additional level of leverage.
Other part of this is the sales price is only one part of the deal. You're still going to have to negotiate trade values, leasing rates which dealers ALWAYS inflate, additional warranties etc. There is still going to be negotiating.
#119
Lexus Champion
To those that love to haggle, they're 'pleased' knowing they believe they got a deal better than most other people, so they feel their haggling was 'worth it'.
with margins on cars, some end up paying too much, and others end up haggling the deal down to the minimum the dealer will accept, which of course varies by dealer, time of month, year, how things are going, inventory levels, etc. if the spread between 'paid too much' and 'bare minimum' is say 10% of the price, then if a no haggle price were 5% under msrp (assuming symmetrical distribution) the dealer might make the same revenue, assuming they gained as many sales as they lost to people who couldn't stand not haggling. However, they might do more sales because a) the transactions ought to be completed a lot more quickly, and b) i submit there's way more people who would love to not to feel they have to haggle, vs those who expect to and enjoy it even.
so i don't see an obvious answer to all this. I for one HATE the song and dance at the dealer and knowing i have to haggle, because they by default want to make more margin for a commodity than is reasonable.
with margins on cars, some end up paying too much, and others end up haggling the deal down to the minimum the dealer will accept, which of course varies by dealer, time of month, year, how things are going, inventory levels, etc. if the spread between 'paid too much' and 'bare minimum' is say 10% of the price, then if a no haggle price were 5% under msrp (assuming symmetrical distribution) the dealer might make the same revenue, assuming they gained as many sales as they lost to people who couldn't stand not haggling. However, they might do more sales because a) the transactions ought to be completed a lot more quickly, and b) i submit there's way more people who would love to not to feel they have to haggle, vs those who expect to and enjoy it even.
so i don't see an obvious answer to all this. I for one HATE the song and dance at the dealer and knowing i have to haggle, because they by default want to make more margin for a commodity than is reasonable.
I find it arrogant that someone can believe that they are entitled to the lowest price on the purchase of a car, and all other people be damned, simply because those people do not haggle or do not want to haggle or do not know how to haggle, or simply do not wish to haggle. Those people who do not haggle are unfairly subsidizing the average prices -- and therefore the profit -- of the dealer, in my opinion.
And then there is the thought that if I believed I got the lowest price because I believe that I am the best haggler, someone else is likely to think as I do. If so, am I truly getting the best price available, or is there someone else out there who was able to cut another $1 or $2 off the price?
I have reviewed the information published online by Lexus about Lexus Plus. I have come to the conclusion that there is a lot of misunderstanding and misconceptions about it.
The prime misconception seems to be that Lexus Plus is a one-price model and not just a no-haggle model. A one-price model is a no-haggle model but a no-haggle model is not necessarily a one-price model.
My initial issue with Lexus Plus, prior to reading the material and prior to learning that it is NOT a one-price model, is that the Lexus central sales office would set the sales price for all dealers (as apparently the Access Toyota program in Canada attempted to do a number of years ago). If that were the case, dealers in large, expensive cities like New York, Chicago and Los Angeles would have to sell at the same low price (that may not be able to cover local costs and guarantee a reasonable profit) as a dealer in much cheaper Iowa, for example; or a dealer in Iowa would be forced to sell for the same high (uncompetitive for Iowa) price as New York, Chicago or Los Angeles.
In a one-price model, all dealers sell for the same price regardless of local costs (high or low) and local competition (or lack of competition). But with Lexus Plus, each dealer sets the price that they wish to sell at, taking into account local costs (dealership building lease costs, living costs, salary and wage costs, etc.), local competition (what other automakers are selling for in the area) and any incentives available at the time (currently available incentives must be factored into the no-haggle Lexus Plus price).
I have no doubt that a good dealer is currently doing this costs analysis regularly, so they know how much (how low) they can sell for and still make a reasonable profit; the difference now will be that the outcome of the analysis is a transparent price. A good businessperson running a good dealership will likely be making the equivalent profit after adopting Lexus Plus as they did prior to adopting Lexus Plus; the no-haggle price set by the good dealer principal will likely be the average of all sales prices prior to the adoption of Lexus Plus. With Lexus Plus, all buyers contribute equally to the profit, whereas before Lexus Plus, those who did not haggle would be subsidizing the prices of those who successfully haggled to the absolute minimum price.
A no-haggle policy is a fairer policy, all around. It is about time that the new car sales model was brought out of the 18th- and 19th-Centuries, into the 21st-Century.
#120
Lexus Fanatic
The problem is that "fair" benefits the lowest common denominator, and penalizes those that have put the effort and energy into negotiating an excellent price. Those of us who do negotiate well and get good deals because of it are going to pay more, while people who don't do that are going to pay less.
Personally, if somebody wanders in a purchases something as huge a purchase as a car without doing any research or being prepared to put a good deal together for themselves, they deserve to overpay.
Personally, if somebody wanders in a purchases something as huge a purchase as a car without doing any research or being prepared to put a good deal together for themselves, they deserve to overpay.