situman

I'm curious, how many of you passionate folks will actually buy the BMW Supra?

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

since i assume it will be a bmw ecu then it'll likely be open for business.

plex

iTrader: (11)

I would consider buying one but will wait a year or two for any issues to get worked out and by then there should be good aftermarket options for power bump etc...

Definitely ha ha

EXE46

If it will able to compete head-on with a 718 GTS, I may be inclined to get one after the issues are worked out considering this is a BMW. Hopefully, Toyota is using the 718 GTS as the benchmark. I left BMW for Lexus due to long term reliability after more than a decade of loyalty so there is some hesitation to return. However, our fellow BMW nerd here did say the engine has some major input from Toyota and Yamaha which is great news if true.

mk416

One video's interview implied that there was quite bit of disagreement and cultural differences in terms of design and engineering approaches, so however much input there was, whoever manufacturers/assembles the engine will most likely have a larger influence on the structure.

situman

If that is true, I wouldn't be surprised if the BMW version will outperform the Supra version. I can see BMW pulling out all the stops and Toyota said let's make this thing last 15yrs instead.

GS3Tek

iTrader: (8)

over on the supramk5 forum, they have a picture of the opened hood.

not sure if this a production yet




zooming out:

plex

iTrader: (11)

So they both share drivetrain but Toyota will detune their version to last longer ok bud. Let's wait on final specs to get released including weight etc..before making assumptions.

EXE46

Haha...hey, it's Toyota, he may be right, these are the same folks that is the slowest to roll out Apple Car-play and Andriod Auto while having one of the worst infotainment systems in the industry.

situman

Dude chill. If the rumor says they argued over different philosophies and know what each company values, it can be a logical conclusion. Of course no one but the engineers will know.

situman

Ya know!!!!! But I'm a troll so my logic dont matter.

plex

iTrader: (11)

You're the troll you chill. They clashed over different approaches to engineering. Read engineering documentation and processes from a Japanese company and compare them to a German company. Then again you have no idea why people mod cars.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

ok guys... let's wait until we have more info before deciding or making personal comments.

RNM GS3

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

^^ Seconding this. I've been keeping up with the scant insider info on that forum for some time now and this is consistent with what I have learned also, in addition to what tiny crumbs Tetsuya Tada has let fall in interviews:

-- B58 based engine design... but with an iron block that is created with a modern kind of process as compared to how 2JZ blocks were cast from iron.

-- 335hp in the I6 turbo is a standard configuration... but may not be the only tune released since there will be both GR and GRMN variants. Other power figures have been thrown around also but with no confirmation who knows. What is certain is that since it's a tune-friendly 3.0 inline-six turbo engine it will be VERY easy for owners to get more power out of it.

-- Magna-Steyr (which has always built the Mercedes G-Wagens since '79) will do the main manufacturing

-- Platform co-developed with BMW and shared with the Z4 but other than the main architecture there are so many differences in tuning that they won't be the same cars

-- An active torque vectoring LSD will be available. NOT brake-based. This may mean its a vectoring system combined with a Torsen style LSD... no further info yet.

-- Two seater design for the A90

-- Some kind of DCT will be the sole transmission available for the I6 Turbo models. The new Z4 is designed for a three pedal manual which will be offered with its inline-six turbo, so we know the basic architecture exists for a manual Supra... but this has not yet been adopted for the Supra. Tetsuya Tada personally does want a manual Supra inline-six turbo model and is advocating for this. Perhaps they didn't think the available manual that BMW had was strong enough... or it could be that he's personally on the fence since he's been quoted as saying that with the torque the Supra's top engine will put out he questions how well a manual would be received by most buyers (which is a silly notion... of course we'd go for the manual anyway). Development is said to be planned to continue throughout the model cycle so maybe there is still hope for a proper manual I6 turbo version.

-- Tada-san has been quoted as having said that the main engine ECU in the MKV/A90 was designed so as to acknowledge that people will want to tune these cars for more power. This is probably also why they specially developed an iron block version of the B58 engine.

-- Wheelbase and suspension are supposed to have been developed for neutral handling

-- A lot of Toyota's own quality control and durability testing was done on parts for this car. So much so that it surprised the BMW engineers. While the market realities meant that Toyota had a better chance of making this car with a solid business case by co-developing it with BMW, it appears they still worked hard to make all of its systems meet their own standards of quality. That impressed me.

-- A 250hp four cylinder turbo version has been developed and will be sold in most of the A90's global markets. This version might even have a manual transmission already intended for sale. No word on whether we'd get it in the USA.

Now I personally hadn't heard of any direct involvement from Yamaha on the development of the A90 engine but if that is true then it's only going to be better for all who get to experience the car. It's a funny reversal since Toyota and Yamaha originally co-developed the 1JZ-GTE in 1989 and a year or two later the 2JZ-GTE was developed from the 1JZ with some help from a German firm before that engine was released in the 1991 Aristo and 1993 Supra. Now the order and origin of the engine that is used as a base for the final engine is the other way around but the same mixture of engineering expertise and philosophy is all there.

Well... minus Getrag as far as we know.

History: Since we know that Toyota and Getrag's relationship became severely strained due to how Toyota dealt with clueless complaints about the Getrag's V160's inherent noisiness, Getrag wanted nothing to do with them after their contract guaranteeing long term support of the V160 and V161 finally expired. This is why suddenly parts for these transmissions became scarce only a few years ago which has made rebuilding much more challenging. It also made prices for V transmissions and associated parts skyrocket. Meanwhile the same transmission internals inside the other variants of the "Type 233" gearbox have still remained available for Nissan's R34 GT-R 6-speed manual and BMW's 850CSI 6-speed manual long after the long term support contracts made with Nissan and BMW have long expired. Getrag Co. (now under new ownership) has not been happy with Toyota for some time now.

My own guess/speculation/wishful thinking based on all I've learned so far:
My pure speculation is that perhaps Tetsuya Tada actually tried to start a new relationship with Getrag to make a proper manual transmission for the A90's top engine. Probably not and even if he actually did who knows how those negotiations would go. You can't risk developing a car like this without having a transmission available at launch and DCTs are popular now so perhaps all the main focus went into co-developing the DCT transmission for the Supra and Z4 for launch time while, secondarily to that, efforts were made in secret to at least try to mend the relationship with Getrag with the intention of creating a new, very strong and pleasing to use manual transmission that could be sold in a later GRMN version of the A90 after the initial launch date.

I would be very happy if the above paragraph were proven to be true. I can wish... and I will reiterate that it's just my own optimistic speculation and hope that this avenue might have even been attempted at all.

Other information that came out of the SupraMKV forums from insider info is that Toyota has committed ALL of their cars from now on to being compatible with their new Toyota Safety System (TSS) architecture. This includes cars with manual transmissions. The Subaru/Toyota GT86 6-speed manual made this cut. Amazingly, so did the 2019 Corolla hatch XSE 6-speed M/T. Notice that the Toyota C-HR is offered with one in all other world markets EXCEPT the USA. But supposedly it would cost Toyota around $500M to make the Supra A90 compatible with the TSS standard if it had a manual transmission. For such a low volume car the bean counters may have gotten in the way of this... against all logic of not offering an iconic halo sportscar aimed at driver involvement that isn't chasing GTR R35's and Lambos without a proper manual transmission.

There is also the possibility that making even a BMW/Getrag/ZF developed existing manual transmission that is already available for the inline-six engine as intended for the Z4 chassis would still be a challenge to make compatible with Toyota's TSS system (and hence the high cost estimate for doing so) because in the modern age there would be even more work to get that aspect of the BMW electronics to work with TSS-specific Toyota electronics.

Since they just aren't talking about the reasons why a manual probably won't be offered at launch... or possibly at all... it's really hard to tell what aspects of the actual facts hold water and also what careful inferences from the scant details we do know from recent history, insider info and Toyota (and Getrag's) own history might tell us through our own attempts at deducing the truth.

I think the chief engineer and all the staff and Gazoo Racing engineers working on the Supra A90 do actually want to offer a manual transmission with the inline-six turbo engine but there have probably been several potential issues in their way beyond just the business case for offering a manual in their halo sports car... in which, ironically, all the fans fully expect a manual to be offered anyway.