KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

^^ THIS. And in a perfect world I would like to see Toyota have a new tough inline six turbo engine family but they aren't going to do that. Benz, BMW and Land Rover all have new sixes because their entire product lines depend on I6's at MUCH higher price points generally than Toyota sells or even Lexus sells for the most part except for their very highest end luxury vehicles.

It will always be debated as to why the V6TT from the LS500 wasn't used instead. It's a fair point that I have wondered myself. At the same time I also like inline six engines from any automaker. I would trust the variant in the new Supra over a usual BMW offering though considering how much failure and durability testing it went through to pass Toyota's standards. The difference to us is that the money went into redesigning any major faults or offending parts rather than using the same money to increase engine power that much.

I really would like to see a modern interpretation of the 1992-2000 SC/Soarer and of course I am biased since I own one and also feel that the RC is really not the same kind of personal luxury sport coupe at all. But the new LC500 is the very upmarket modern interpretation of what the older SC/Soarer was.

If Toyota took their same approach from the 90's and also spread the driveline into the soon-to-be-discontinued GS (and soon-to-be-discontinued-for-Japan Mark X sedan) and even the IS line then they conceivably could have a way to use a new I6 engine family and stretch the use of a luxury coupe platform for two vehicles. The RC is a very heavy car with a less than ideal chassis. It looks cool but not as cool as a Z30 SC/Soarer.

The only way a scenario like that would happen other than the inevitable shift toward electric drivelines, is if people around the globe suddenly en masse stop buying so many SUVs and CUVs and take a greater interest in sedans and coupes again.

I will never fully understand why non-offroad SUVs and CUVs are as overwhelmingly appealing as they are. At the end of the day their popularity has been gradually killing off the kinds of vehicles that folks like us actually love and want.


^^ 100% the MKIV TT was/is an amazing very high performance grand touring car. And the engine without tuning is impressive even by today's standards. With tuning depending on what lofty factory stock high performance new car you're comparing it to it's still often no contest.

I can tell you firsthand the "320hp / 315ft-lbs" is absolutely misleading. It's easily closer to a 350hp/340-ish torque (at the crank) engine in stock tune. They dyno around 290-310whp on the stock sequential 10-12psi of boost with no tuning.


Actually the MKV GR I6 turbo is faster than the MKIV TT 6-speed. The MKV hits 0-60 in 4.1 seconds with the ZF 8HP automatic. The stock MKIV TT 6-speed manual does 0-60 in 4.9 seconds.

I do not believe the "335hp" rating in the MKV's engine either. Not with 365ft-lbs of torque (if even that rating is 100% accurate). The state of the art automatic transmission helps the 0-60 a lot but the car needs more than just that to hit its 0-60 figure.

I don't think it's got anywhere close to a 400hp engine but I might suspect its at least 30hp or more underrated as is.

Stroock639

0-60 is a nice little gimmick that gets people excited and looks good in the specs, but it's the next 60 mph after that where things really matter... if a supra and zupra both did a rolling start from 40-50 i can't see the zupra pulling away

i also use "faster" and "quicker" as meaning slightly different things lol, of course the supra with its long gears and turbo lag will take longer to get going... but as you know once that 2nd turbo fully kicks in you get this incredibly intoxicating wave of boost that just fires you down the road like few other cars

something tells me the zupra wont do that because i'm sure the turbo lag has "successfully" been reduced... and although early 90s turbo lag isn't the best for practicality, it's just so much more fun when the boost finally does come in... wait for it, wait for it, wait for it... BOOOOOST!!

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

I hear you... but even though the Z4 shares a chassis and R&D with the Supra MKV Toyota actually did co-develop the chassis, suspension and architecture with BMW from a clean slate. Parts bin components were evaluated, redesigned if necessary and used in the parts list yes but the core vehicle itself wasn't some off the shelf chassis that BMW licensed to Toyota. They both penned it according to the specs they absolutely had to have and could agree on.

Of course I'd like every automaker to design their own sports cars totally in house. Ideally this has always been a traditional mark of an automaker's pride: "THIS is one of the best cars we can make with all our own knowhow and experience."

I guess where I am coming from is that despite my wish for that I am also glad there was a new Supra at all and that it wasn't just some rebadged BMW Z4.

A Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 Twin Turbo rebadged as a Dodge Stealth R/T Twin Turbo this car is not.

With where the market and regulations are going I am happy that this car in its current form exists at all. That is also the reason why I've maintained my annoyance that they haven't just thrown a manual gearbox option in it already. For how many model years into the future can such a gas-only turbo manual RWD configuration be offered? Offer it NOW while the window still exists!


That's pretty darn good. I've got nothing but respect for any high performance sedan that can pull off numbers like those. I've been very impressed by a number of AMG Benzes over the years. Especially their sedans. E55's, the C32 AMG, E63's, G500's and G55's and any of their V12 Biturbos. I love what AMG does with their cars and I've yet to encounter one that doesn't impress me. I would only say that it's not really the same kind of thing when comparing a big sedan to a small two-seater but acceleration is acceleration.

I am pretty sure my car as is will not match those numbers either as it is but maybe it would if set up properly and with a better LSD and semi-slicks out back. I also would not expect it to blow the doors off a stock MKV with the automatic. A manual isn't always faster these days but I like it. But to me that's also the MO of a nicely set up classic car: it's about what it does by itself as a fun thing rather than as a benchmark against all others.


I mentioned this in a previous post but the 3.5L V6TT engine from the LS500 is a fair point. Presumably they could have used it instead. I love any I6 but I'd also have understood if they went V6TT. Nissan's R34 GT-R chief engineer wanted a V6TT engine but was vetoed on that in favor of retaining the RB26. Once Nissan went bankrupt and was bought up by Renault that desire finally happened with the VR38 engine. And now Infiniti uses a couple of VR30 variants so the engine eventually saw expanded use.

I don't think for a moment it's about a fear of making the car so good that it would threaten Lexus sales. The target buyer for this car and for the MKIV are totally different than your average Lexus buyer who would demand every stupid gadget, every overblown creature comfort and every totally unnecessary feature imaginable. And there is no way at all that your common Lexus customer in 2019 wants a manual gearbox option. Well... I do but how many like me are out there who like the idea of a luxury Lexus with a stick shift?

This comes down to numbers for Toyota as it always does unfortunately. In the 90's when the MKIV Supra was being designed they were riding a strong economic wave in Japan and once it popped they found that they could sell their flagship sports car but less and less every year. In the USA sales dwindled by 1996 and 1997. In Japan just because it was easy enough to keep making it up until 2003 emissions regulations kicked in they kept making the MKIV and milking it for all it was worth until it simply would not pass emissions any longer for MY2003.

If this first year car does well I do believe we will see a 400-450hp+ GRMN Supra for $80k-$85k. And that car should be the true equivalent of an A80 TT 6-speed.

But turning to the current Godzilla R35 I actually don't have any interest in them personally. I know how good they are and how fast they are but honestly I much prefer the R32, R33 and R34 GT-R's which can be tuned considerably just like an MKIV TT Supra but which do not, out of the box or even highly modified match an 600whp+++ R35 with a DCT transmission.


Eh, it's still a low volume Supra. And despite the co-engineered chassis and driveline (Toyota is rumored to have had early influence in aspects of the ground up design of the B58 engine itself before they began the Supra MKV project) it's still got their marks all over, under and inside of every aspect of it. The main thing is that both companies saved on costs by designing the common chassis. Compared to the Z4, other than the 6-port exhaust 382hp engine I feel like Toyota got the better end of the stick. The Z4 looks kind of confused and ugly while the MKV actually looks sexy.

At the end of the day if it walks the walk the way a Supra should and takes to hard driving and excessive tuning (with the expected high costs of upgrading its engine-- same deal when building a 600whp++ let alone a 1200whp++ 2JZ) I don't feel the same about shunning it for sharing some BMW DNA.


Haha, no worries. It's definitely one of if not the best performance engine I've owned to date. You can drive it normally or let it rocket you around. BPU tune is ideal and better to start opening up the engine. The 4500rpm barrier is more pronounced on the 93-95 ECU which I am on. They improved it and smoothed out that transition with the 96-98 ECUs. The second turbo is a lot of fun for sure. I hardly need to use it most of the time.

The catch, as I have discovered, is that at least with a manual gearbox you need a good twin plate clutch to hold the power and whatever hard driving you want to throw at it outside of less stressful highway rolls. Also, a twin plate is best to reduce pressure exerted on the rear crank thrust bearing that would often be too high when using single disc clutches. That's my next order of business to address with an OS Giken twin to replace the semi-mild Southbend single disc that I am on with my R154. A puck clutch with a lot of clamping force CAN do the job but a twin disc is the better way to hold the power and torque.

As such, for the time being I don't stay into the 2nd turbo for very long unless I'm doing a gradual pull around 50-60mph. But that will change.

The irony is that a sequential twin turbo system like this really isn't needed with today's modern twin scroll turbos, quick spool valves and variable valve timing technology. But it's a neat if very complex way to deliver horsepower.

Stroock639

oh i know it's not just a rebadged z4, but like you said a car like the supra represents the culmination of toyota's years worth of knowledge and innovation, and it pains me that my favorite automaker is totally capable of making its own great sports car but doesn't want to

there's a reason that from the first time i got a ride in an E55 i knew i needed to have this car at some point in my life lol... the combination of 5.4 liter V8 and a big twin screw supercharger just makes it feel like there's a 12 liter engine or something

although certainly faster, the modern turbo cars just don't have the same violent hot rod feel and immediacy, and the supercharger noises are awesome... the best 0-60 i've got was 4.3 and that was with easing into it and a bit of wheel spin (with video proof of course), you can't just unleash over 520 ft lbs at once through only two 265 section tires on the street unfortunately... that however also means you can really lay down some rubber lol

of course the average lexus customer would never consider a supra, but an RC F or LC buyer isn't your average lexus customer... i'm sure there are RC F buyers who are getting the car mostly for the engine and chassis who would even rather do without some of the gimmicky gadgets

when the supra was in production there was no such thing as an F or F sport lexus, so no conflicts of interest there


the mere fact that the N in GRMN stands for nurburgring would mean it almost certainly wouldn't be, as we know from james may once a car company dedicates a car to the nurburgring it means ride quality is sacrificed in the interest of getting the fastest possible lap time, not like the supra which has somewhat of a soft-ish ride and seats which are comfy and thick that you sit on rather than down in

lol have you heard of my man Smokey Nagata?! the R35 also isn't too high on my list of cars, at least not as something to use every day

the ride is quite harsh and the trans is kind of clunky and jerky at low speeds, plus there's the usual nissan quality throughout the car that one might expect... it also feels more or less accelerates like a V6 altima until about 3500 rpm, but after another 1000 rpm passes it accelerates like a V6 altima that's falling off a bridge lol... all is forgiven once you start pushing it because the capabilities of the thing are genuinely astonishing, the cornering might even be more impressive than the acceleration (stock at least haha)

as something just to go around in, a prius is nicer


that's interesting they smoothed out the transition for later years, that almost makes me want an earlier one haha... plus in NY at least if a car is OBD 1 it doesn't need to pass the same emissions as OBD 2 so that could certainly be handy

and yea the twin turbo system is awesomely unique, the little turbo can be distinctly heard and felt spooling up early on giving it like an almost V8 feel torque wise, and then of course the big one comes on and that really gives a big shove... the sheer amount of plumbing and vacuum lines required to make it work is crazy

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

I can feel the "dead spot" or "dip" in the power curve around 4,000rpm or so but to me it doesn't last very long. Most Supra MKIV owners prefer the OBD2 ECUs to eliminate it but I don't find it that big of a deal in stock tune.

I kind of find some turbo lag fun personally but the 2JZGTE's sequential turbos don't have much of it. The 1996+ JDM VVT-i revision has even better low end torque. To your other comment in your full post above, yes you do want to be sure of where you're steering when you put the pedal down to get the full shove from the second turbo.

Without the factory air box installed and just a K&N cone filter you can really hear the #1 turbo spool. The #2 turbo is mostly drowned out by #1 when it finally comes online.

All those vacuum hoses are daunting at first. After putting them all together by hand (all new hoses, clamps, VSVs, etc) according to the original EPC diagrams and TSRM I'm pretty confident I have a good picture in my mind where most of them go and their various functions. But at a glance it's still overwhelming. To maintain the engine with that stock twin system in place it pays to become familiar with basic vacuum pressure gauge testing and VSV solenoid testing. Far greater simplicity is among the many reasons why single conversions are preferred for those who want significantly more power. Although I love the STU hybrid twin upgrades.

Another reason why with today's technology the new Supra doesn't really need such a complicated twin stage turbo system. Back in 1993 only a couple of cars had been using sequential twin turbocharging: the Porsche 959, the Supra MKIV Turbo, the 1993-2002 Mazda RX-7 (FD), and the Japan-only Subaru Legacy sedans with the 2.0L flat four sequential twin turbo. To the best of my knowledge today only some diesels and a couple of BMWs use sequential.

Back then there was no variable valve timing and low compression in the 8.0:1-8.5:1 range was still common for turbo cars. There were some cars that used early variable inlet turbos (like the Shelby CSX VNT) but twin scroll turbos were not as prevalent or advanced then as today.

RNM GS3

Not sure why people here are saying that inline 6 made by Toyota couldn’t be used in other cars/SUVs?
Here are a few:
- LC
- LS
- New gen IS
- New gen GS (if they had decided not to discontinue it)
- New gen GX
- LX / Land Cruiser
- 4Runner
- Tundra

These are just BS excuses from Toyota management that are lazy and cheap.
They are behind in engine development, EV development, autonomous tech etc.

Compared to other large automakers- they are the least innovative by far!

situman

I drove a late model Land Cruiser with the 4.5L straight six and all I can think about was damn, the hood is long and front heavy relative to my GX.

ST430

Picture of the Z4 didnt attach last time, so here they are....hoping to test drive a Zupra soon so I can make a decision whether to trade in my Q60 for it.....

plex

iTrader: (11)

Full Review Pending, sounds louder than I expected for a stock setup and the trans shifts pretty good too.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

is it my imagination or is the front end beyond the wheels longer on the Zupra than the Z4?

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

the downshift rev blips are nice in that video.

but somehow i just think all that sound, crackles and pops are just so much 'boy racer' and that ninja-silent electric cars are so much more awesome.

pman6

meh .

plex

iTrader: (11)

Interesting video about how the car was designed to be modded by the aftermarket. I do agree with his statement that you always want more power ha ha, I'm at mid 8's at wheels in my MKIV Supra and got so used to it now it almost feels slow.

MattyG

I think that there was no way to engineer a Toyota V6tt into a BMW platform designed for inline sixes. Toyota would have had to make this decision right from the starting line - meaning that the the 5th gen Supra would have to be a real Toyota product from platform to wheel hubs to body.

Stroock639

yea but the main reason for the bmw platform was because toyota wanted the "supra" to have an I6, there's be much less need for the bmw platform if the V35A was considered from the start

i seriously don't know how toyota didn't think people wouldn't totally flip when they announced that finally we were getting a new supra and it'd be a german stiff riding roadster with no manual that'd get destroyed by the current version of cars that it was previously faster than