2019 Toyota Supra
06-08-19, 06:02 PM
#1082
Ironic that Toyota does their best work thru partnership with other manufacturer's. We can only hope the 4IS rumor regarding the use of BMW engine is true as well. Use BMW's engine and make a better car than their G20, win for those of us who've gotten bored with our Lexus's. Anyway, glad to see the BMW Supra getting rave reviews, never expected that.
06-12-19, 07:44 AM
#1083
Toyota Supra makes more horsepower than listed
Latest dyno numbers declare 332 hp and 387 lb-ft at the wheels
Two magazines put two 2020 Toyota Supras on two dynos in two parts of the country on two different days. Both magazines came to the same result: Toyota underrated the power figures of the particular Supras being tested. In May, Car and Driver strapped a Supra to an all-wheel drive Dynojet dynamometer in Livernois, Michigan. CD's figures came to 339 horsepower and 427 lb-ft of torque at the wheels. After that, Motor Trendstrapped a Supra to a Mustang eddy-current chassis dynamometer in Torrance, California. MT's weather-corrected numbers came to 332 hp and 387 lb-ft.
Toyota's official numbers for the 3.0-liter turbocharged inline-six cylinder sourced from BMW are 335 hp and 365 lb-ft, measured at the crank. Using the hoary conventional wisdom of driveline and hydraulic losses causing 15 percent of power to evaporate before reaching the wheels, we'd expect the Supra's power at the contact patch to be around 285 hp and 310 lb-ft. Even updating that parasitic loss figure to 10 percent for a modern drivetrain, we're still at around 300 hp and 328 lb-ft.
Using MT's tallies and parasitic losses of 10 percent, the Supra in question was putting out more like 364 hp and 426 lb-ft at the crank. At 15 percent loss, the numbers suggest 390 hp and 445 lb-ft. Those numbers don't line up with the higher-powered incarnation of the B58 engine in the Z4 M40i, either, officially classified at 380 hp and 369 lb-ft.
The C/D torque figure can be rule an anomaly, the mag measuring torque in fifth gear at a 1.32:1 ratio instead of the 1.00:1 ratio in sixth gear because they couldn't hit redline in sixth. The mag avowed "there's a chance the peak torque output may be slightly inflated." On the other hand, Mustang dynos like the kind used by MT have earned the nickname "heartbreaker" from a habit of returning disappointing power totals.
Between car, region, weather, tester, and dyno variations, it's useless to directly compare numbers worked up by C/D and MT. The point is that two data points arrived at independently found noteworthy power surpluses compared to Supra brochure numbers.
Neither story tries to assign a reason for the difference. C/D, and the Internet, say BMW is known for understating outputs. When C/D put the current M5 Competition on the same Dynojet used to test the Supra, the readout showed 617 hp and 606 lb-ft at the wheels for a sedan officially rated at 617 hp and 553 lb-ft. MT said its press loaner was like an "early build preproduction car," perhaps with a "partially hand-built engine" and without the latest calibration.
Toyota's official numbers for the 3.0-liter turbocharged inline-six cylinder sourced from BMW are 335 hp and 365 lb-ft, measured at the crank. Using the hoary conventional wisdom of driveline and hydraulic losses causing 15 percent of power to evaporate before reaching the wheels, we'd expect the Supra's power at the contact patch to be around 285 hp and 310 lb-ft. Even updating that parasitic loss figure to 10 percent for a modern drivetrain, we're still at around 300 hp and 328 lb-ft.
Using MT's tallies and parasitic losses of 10 percent, the Supra in question was putting out more like 364 hp and 426 lb-ft at the crank. At 15 percent loss, the numbers suggest 390 hp and 445 lb-ft. Those numbers don't line up with the higher-powered incarnation of the B58 engine in the Z4 M40i, either, officially classified at 380 hp and 369 lb-ft.
The C/D torque figure can be rule an anomaly, the mag measuring torque in fifth gear at a 1.32:1 ratio instead of the 1.00:1 ratio in sixth gear because they couldn't hit redline in sixth. The mag avowed "there's a chance the peak torque output may be slightly inflated." On the other hand, Mustang dynos like the kind used by MT have earned the nickname "heartbreaker" from a habit of returning disappointing power totals.
Between car, region, weather, tester, and dyno variations, it's useless to directly compare numbers worked up by C/D and MT. The point is that two data points arrived at independently found noteworthy power surpluses compared to Supra brochure numbers.
Neither story tries to assign a reason for the difference. C/D, and the Internet, say BMW is known for understating outputs. When C/D put the current M5 Competition on the same Dynojet used to test the Supra, the readout showed 617 hp and 606 lb-ft at the wheels for a sedan officially rated at 617 hp and 553 lb-ft. MT said its press loaner was like an "early build preproduction car," perhaps with a "partially hand-built engine" and without the latest calibration.
06-12-19, 10:45 AM
#1084
^^ more samples and measurements is always good. i went to a car show in long beach a couple weekends ago and the new supra was there, probably the same one Motor Trend tested, and IMO, it stole the show 
had a whole bunch of people staring at it
had a whole bunch of people staring at it
07-14-19, 01:29 AM
#1085
Intermediate
07-14-19, 08:14 AM
#1086
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
‘Launch edition’ differences appear to be only red seats, red mirrors, black rims, and a badge, for the low, low additional amount of $1260. 
07-14-19, 09:33 AM
#1087
Lexus Fanatic
Makes it a rare special thing for the people who buy the first set. This new Supra will be a very special car for certain Toyota fans. Definitely not for you. Not for us. But I can definitely appreciate it. I find the partnership with BMW interesting even if controversial.
07-14-19, 03:50 PM
#1088
Lexus Champion
Makes it a rare special thing for the people who buy the first set. This new Supra will be a very special car for certain Toyota fans. Definitely not for you. Not for us. But I can definitely appreciate it. I find the partnership with BMW interesting even if controversial.
07-14-19, 04:00 PM
#1089
Lexus Fanatic
It will be interesting to know if Toyota lent some expertise on the reliability front for BMW. I sure they did.
07-14-19, 04:05 PM
#1090
Lexus Champion
Does the Toyota version use Denso electronics?
07-14-19, 04:28 PM
#1092
Lexus Champion
Denso are very high quality parts. LS430 is full of them.
My problem with BMW stuff is they take the stupidest shortcuts that it's mindboggling. Plastic cooling parts, plastic timing chain guides for god's sake. Why would you design a timing chain guide made out of plastic??????????? An ex-boss years ago picked up an E38 740 and I warned him not to and told him his engine would blow, 2 weeks later the timing chain jumped and that's exactly what happened. I picked up my LS about a week later, lol, he was like "Man I should have listened to you. Nice Lexus."
My problem with BMW stuff is they take the stupidest shortcuts that it's mindboggling. Plastic cooling parts, plastic timing chain guides for god's sake. Why would you design a timing chain guide made out of plastic??????????? An ex-boss years ago picked up an E38 740 and I warned him not to and told him his engine would blow, 2 weeks later the timing chain jumped and that's exactly what happened. I picked up my LS about a week later, lol, he was like "Man I should have listened to you. Nice Lexus."
07-14-19, 04:38 PM
#1093
Lexus Fanatic
Denso are very high quality parts. LS430 is full of them.
My problem with BMW stuff is they take the stupidest shortcuts that it's mindboggling. Plastic cooling parts, plastic timing chain guides for god's sake. Why would you design a timing chain guide made out of plastic??????????? An ex-boss years ago picked up an E38 740 and I warned him not to and told him his engine would blow, 2 weeks later the timing chain jumped and that's exactly what happened. I picked up my LS about a week later, lol, he was like "Man I should have listened to you. Nice Lexus."
My problem with BMW stuff is they take the stupidest shortcuts that it's mindboggling. Plastic cooling parts, plastic timing chain guides for god's sake. Why would you design a timing chain guide made out of plastic??????????? An ex-boss years ago picked up an E38 740 and I warned him not to and told him his engine would blow, 2 weeks later the timing chain jumped and that's exactly what happened. I picked up my LS about a week later, lol, he was like "Man I should have listened to you. Nice Lexus."
I think Toyota has a stake in Denso
07-14-19, 04:51 PM
#1094
Lexus Champion
BMW cooling systems are mostly plastic. A friend of mine who has had to replace literally every part of the cooling system on his old 3 series, it's hilarious how he defends it. I'm like, "Well all I've done is replaced a water pump in 15 years."
07-14-19, 05:55 PM
#1095
Lexus Champion
Why would you assume that? I'm asking if the Supra uses Denso stuff, meaning I hope the car does. BMW electronics are straight up garbage it's a big reason their cars are so expensive to own past warranty. And the over use of plastic engine components.