Lexus Loses Its Luster in J.D. Power Quality Study
07-01-17, 02:06 PM
#211
Lexus Champion
I do, however, agree with the Germans' new approach of using a mild hybrid. Use an electric motor to assist the engine in low-speed (from stop) acceleration and use an electric, on-demand compressor to assist the engine in high-speed acceleration. Wrap it all together with a new 48-volt electrical system (instead of the current 12-volt) to eliminate the different voltage sources (low-voltage for accessories like lights, etc. and high-voltage for the hybrid battery).
07-01-17, 02:28 PM
#212
The Camry Hybrid and ES 300h are not cheap and do not have hopeless acceleration. They have more than adequate acceleration. Put my ESh in Sport mode and it will go.
As for "hopeless electric vehicle only range - largely due to their tiddly widdly little batteries, and tiddly widdly little electric motors", it is a tradeoff.
A more powerful electric motor will give better acceleration but will also use up battery charge very, very, very quickly, requiring a larger, heavier, higher-capacity battery to hold adequate charge. But to charge that higher-capacity battery, the engine will have to switch on more often to recharge the battery. If the engine is running all the time in order to recharge the battery, why not just drive a normal, non-hybrid car (perhaps with auto start-stop to save fuel when idling or at stoplights)?
OK, put in a higher-capacity battery and make it plug-in rechargeable. But once the battery discharges, you are left with a hybrid car pulling an extra load of the larger, heavier battery.
OK. put in a small, turbocharged engine, but if that small engine is overworked pulling around large, heavy plug-in hybrid vehicle, it does not save on fuel consumption.
This is the route that the Germans are going with their plug-in hybrids. It is nothing but a PR stunt. There are other, simpler ways to build a fast car without making it a hybrid electric vehicle.
As for "hopeless electric vehicle only range - largely due to their tiddly widdly little batteries, and tiddly widdly little electric motors", it is a tradeoff.
A more powerful electric motor will give better acceleration but will also use up battery charge very, very, very quickly, requiring a larger, heavier, higher-capacity battery to hold adequate charge. But to charge that higher-capacity battery, the engine will have to switch on more often to recharge the battery. If the engine is running all the time in order to recharge the battery, why not just drive a normal, non-hybrid car (perhaps with auto start-stop to save fuel when idling or at stoplights)?
OK, put in a higher-capacity battery and make it plug-in rechargeable. But once the battery discharges, you are left with a hybrid car pulling an extra load of the larger, heavier battery.
OK. put in a small, turbocharged engine, but if that small engine is overworked pulling around large, heavy plug-in hybrid vehicle, it does not save on fuel consumption.
This is the route that the Germans are going with their plug-in hybrids. It is nothing but a PR stunt. There are other, simpler ways to build a fast car without making it a hybrid electric vehicle.
IS300h's are sold in Canada?
IS300h's are sold in Paris where my mother's cousin lives.
Were you aware that BMW 330e & Benz C350e PHEV's have both considerably greater performance [more than 25% quicker acceleration from 0-60 mph], and drink less than half the fuel the IS300h hybrid drinks.
The IS300h is much cheaper though...
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Last edited by peteharvey; 07-01-17 at 08:13 PM.
07-01-17, 02:46 PM
#213
Pole Position
07-01-17, 04:41 PM
#214
Lexus Fanatic
After reading that specific comparison, I would have probably chosen the Mercedes or the Audi...but only if I were not going to keep the Mercedes past the 4-year warranty. Too much chance of them becoming money-pits after that.
Last edited by mmarshall; 07-01-17 at 07:17 PM.
07-01-17, 08:15 PM
#215
Lexus Champion
Let's forget about Camry Hybrid and ES300h, because very difficult to compare to BMW.
IS300h's are sold in Canada?
IS300h's are sold in Paris where my ******'s cousin lives.
BMW 330e & Benz C350e PHEV's have both considerably greater performance [more than 25% quicker acceleration from 0-60 mph], and drink less than half the fuel the IS300h hybrid drinks.
The IS300h is much cheaper though...
_
IS300h's are sold in Canada?
IS300h's are sold in Paris where my ******'s cousin lives.
BMW 330e & Benz C350e PHEV's have both considerably greater performance [more than 25% quicker acceleration from 0-60 mph], and drink less than half the fuel the IS300h hybrid drinks.
The IS300h is much cheaper though...
_
Last edited by Sulu; 07-01-17 at 08:18 PM.
07-01-17, 08:29 PM
#216
The Camry Hybrid and ES 300h are not cheap and do not have hopeless acceleration. They have more than adequate acceleration. Put my ESh in Sport mode and it will go.
As for "hopeless electric vehicle only range - largely due to their tiddly widdly little batteries, and tiddly widdly little electric motors", it is a tradeoff.
A more powerful electric motor will give better acceleration but will also use up battery charge very, very, very quickly, requiring a larger, heavier, higher-capacity battery to hold adequate charge. But to charge that higher-capacity battery, the engine will have to switch on more often to recharge the battery. If the engine is running all the time in order to recharge the battery, why not just drive a normal, non-hybrid car (perhaps with auto start-stop to save fuel when idling or at stoplights)?
OK, put in a higher-capacity battery and make it plug-in rechargeable. But once the battery discharges, you are left with a hybrid car pulling an extra load of the larger, heavier battery.
OK. put in a small, turbocharged engine, but if that small engine is overworked pulling around large, heavy plug-in hybrid vehicle, it does not save on fuel consumption.
This is the route that the Germans are going with their plug-in hybrids. It is nothing but a PR stunt. There are other, simpler ways to build a fast car without making it a hybrid electric vehicle.
As for "hopeless electric vehicle only range - largely due to their tiddly widdly little batteries, and tiddly widdly little electric motors", it is a tradeoff.
A more powerful electric motor will give better acceleration but will also use up battery charge very, very, very quickly, requiring a larger, heavier, higher-capacity battery to hold adequate charge. But to charge that higher-capacity battery, the engine will have to switch on more often to recharge the battery. If the engine is running all the time in order to recharge the battery, why not just drive a normal, non-hybrid car (perhaps with auto start-stop to save fuel when idling or at stoplights)?
OK, put in a higher-capacity battery and make it plug-in rechargeable. But once the battery discharges, you are left with a hybrid car pulling an extra load of the larger, heavier battery.
OK. put in a small, turbocharged engine, but if that small engine is overworked pulling around large, heavy plug-in hybrid vehicle, it does not save on fuel consumption.
This is the route that the Germans are going with their plug-in hybrids. It is nothing but a PR stunt. There are other, simpler ways to build a fast car without making it a hybrid electric vehicle.
Because the bigger battery capacity combined with the bigger electric motor gives both much greater performance, and fuel economy.
07-01-17, 09:50 PM
#217
So the question for me: has Lexus abdicated Hybrid leadership? If so, why? To concentrate on turbos? But is the 2.0t a performance leader? Because the cars are heavy I was told....but why are they heavy? Outdated construction methods? For toughness and reliability?
To me a real segment leader does not have to choose between performance and reliability. It should have both. And maybe they didnt see the plug in hybrid advancement coming.
07-01-17, 10:25 PM
#218
Quite true. The IS300h is still using essentially Prius technology, turned around 90 degrees for RWD to be a sports sedan; but the C300e and the 330e are considerably quicker, with seemingly few downsides.
So the question for me: has Lexus abdicated Hybrid leadership? If so, why? To concentrate on turbos? But is the 2.0t a performance leader? Because the cars are heavy I was told....but why are they heavy? Outdated construction methods? For toughness and reliability?
To me a real segment leader does not have to choose between performance and reliability. It should have both. And maybe they didnt see the plug in hybrid advancement coming.
So the question for me: has Lexus abdicated Hybrid leadership? If so, why? To concentrate on turbos? But is the 2.0t a performance leader? Because the cars are heavy I was told....but why are they heavy? Outdated construction methods? For toughness and reliability?
To me a real segment leader does not have to choose between performance and reliability. It should have both. And maybe they didnt see the plug in hybrid advancement coming.
Meanwhile the all new 2015-22 Audi A4 is likewise 260 lbs lighter than its predecessor!
I was explaining to Bitkahuna before that the 3IS is a bit heavy and long in the tooth, but 4IS will come in 2020.
Toyota has its Prius Prime PHEV - it's there, but just slow to release on the market.
Given the time, I'm sure ES300p "Prime" PHEV will come, with a Camry "Prime" PHEV trickling down the range...
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Last edited by peteharvey; 07-01-17 at 10:43 PM.
07-02-17, 10:43 AM
#219
No surprises there. Lexus lost the plot when they started going off the rails with the spindle grill and uncoordinated body shapes.
Each generation the interior build quality has been going backwards.
Disappointing as I have 2 in my garage and owned many in the past.
Each generation the interior build quality has been going backwards.
Disappointing as I have 2 in my garage and owned many in the past.
07-02-17, 12:32 PM
#220
Lexus Champion
Quite true. The IS300h is still using essentially Prius technology, turned around 90 degrees for RWD to be a sports sedan; but the C300e and the 330e are considerably quicker, with seemingly few downsides.
So the question for me: has Lexus abdicated Hybrid leadership? If so, why? To concentrate on turbos? But is the 2.0t a performance leader? Because the cars are heavy I was told....but why are they heavy? Outdated construction methods? For toughness and reliability?
To me a real segment leader does not have to choose between performance and reliability. It should have both. And maybe they didnt see the plug in hybrid advancement coming.
So the question for me: has Lexus abdicated Hybrid leadership? If so, why? To concentrate on turbos? But is the 2.0t a performance leader? Because the cars are heavy I was told....but why are they heavy? Outdated construction methods? For toughness and reliability?
To me a real segment leader does not have to choose between performance and reliability. It should have both. And maybe they didnt see the plug in hybrid advancement coming.
The Mercedes-Benz and BMW hybrids were designed to a different philosophy, tuned to be performance cars rather than fuel efficient cars. They are also very simple designs compared to the Toyota and Ford hybrid systems, and the GM Voltec hybrid system.
The hybrid design used by MB and BMW is the same in concept to Honda's original and simple Integrated Motor Assist hybrid system, in which the gasoline engine is (and remains) the primary method of propulsion, and the single electric motor is secondary and used to assist the ICE. The only difference between the German system and the IMA is that the German system has a more powerful electric motor.
All MB did to build the plug-in hybrid was to scale up the electric motor and hybrid battery, but the ICE is still the primary method of propulsion. When the battery is drained, the car depends upon the gasoline engine for propulsion. To recharge the battery, the single electric motor must act as a generator and cannot provide any power to drive the car (as the Toyota, Ford and GM hybrid systems can do), so the car relies on the gasoline engine.
MB's PR stunt with its plug-in hybrids seems to be working and has bowled over so many people.
So efficiency will be good when running on the battery but will greatly suffer once the battery runs down and the car must depend completely upon the gasoline engine for propulsion.
If you really want to build a truly efficient plug-in hybrid, you must approach it from another design philosophy: Make the electric drive the primary method of propulsion, with the gasoline engine assisting when needed (ideally as a range-extender only), not the opposite.
07-02-17, 02:13 PM
#221
Presently, he is heading TMC's Electric Vehicles Division.
I like the spindle grill, but I'm not too keen on the uncoordinated body shapes.
I'm also not a fan of his idea to give TMC inspired styling and inspired driving dynamics [sporty] to match the great heritage of European marques like Maserati etc.
Because these famous marques like Maserati etc went broke, and are now owned by bread and butter Fiat etc.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
For the base models, just stick to comfortable cars.
Have an F Sport suspension option available.
For even greater sports performance, aftermarket coilovers and after market wheels/tires are always available.
However, it is very difficult if not impossible to make a standard sporty OEM vehicle comfortable in the aftermarket world.
Forthcoming Camry is low, such that it is rather difficult & tricky to make this vehicle taller in the aftermarket, without compromizing on safety.
I would have preferred if Toyota stuck to the traditional route for a tall Camry, and this gives slightly easier entry/exit, greater visibility, greater ground clearance, and greater suspension travel too, and this allow sports enthusiasts to go aftermarket to lower their cars.
Why try to cannibalize the aftermarket sports suspension industry?
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Last edited by peteharvey; 07-02-17 at 02:34 PM.
07-02-17, 03:06 PM
#222
Lexus Fanatic
When you haven't entered or exited a Camry yet, how can you say it's too low? Lol
07-02-17, 03:58 PM
#223
07-02-17, 04:04 PM
#224
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by peteharvey
If you read reports carefully, they said the forthcoming Camry's seating position has been lowered.
07-02-17, 04:25 PM
#225
