Lexus Loses Its Luster in J.D. Power Quality Study
#31
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#32
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Unfortunately I'm not surprised.
I don't think this is totally due to infotainment for Lexus. The RTC has been out since 2013, no reason for this drop to be attributed heavily to that as it's basically unchanged. I think it has a lot to do with rattles and little things like that too.
My Kia Minivan is rattle free, LS460 sadly is not.
I don't think this is totally due to infotainment for Lexus. The RTC has been out since 2013, no reason for this drop to be attributed heavily to that as it's basically unchanged. I think it has a lot to do with rattles and little things like that too.
My Kia Minivan is rattle free, LS460 sadly is not.
I am saddened that Lexus has fallen from its perch atop the quality standings. I also agree that it is not all due to the infotainment gremlins. Modern cars are indeed highly complex pieces of machinery but automakers still find a way to set themselves apart. Sadly, Lexus is not the absolute pinnacle of quality. I'm still a fan of the LS, but can't say I'm a fan of the brand as a whole anymore.
Last edited by FatherTo1; 06-21-17 at 08:31 PM.
#33
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I also findthe rankings laughable with mazda and audi below jeep and lexus well below volkswagon ![Stick Out Tongue](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
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#34
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I'm not saying that firming up suspensions won't cause rattles and creaks, I'm saying that's not what has happened with Lexus, as the only "firmer" Lexus I have owned was my 4GS, my 10 ES350 and 15 LS460 are as soft as their predecessors before them but they still have more rattles and looseness inside than their older versions which I also owned did when they were MUCH older and more used. And the difference in damping we've seen with some Lexus models is very subtle, not as drastic as slamming the suspension on a modified car.
The issue is simple, it's build quality. Lower quality plastics that creak and don't melt together, and generally less stout construction.
My Kia Minivan rides much harder than my LS460, but no rattles. Why? Because it's put together better obviously.
The rattles in the LS460 aren't bad, I have the one in the console isolated, I have one "snap" in the dash in front of the passenger I have to figure out, and a slight rattle behind me somewhere. That however is unacceptable in a Lexus, especially the LS. I tolerated it in the ES and GS but it REALLY bugs me in the LS.
The issue is simple, it's build quality. Lower quality plastics that creak and don't melt together, and generally less stout construction.
My Kia Minivan rides much harder than my LS460, but no rattles. Why? Because it's put together better obviously.
The rattles in the LS460 aren't bad, I have the one in the console isolated, I have one "snap" in the dash in front of the passenger I have to figure out, and a slight rattle behind me somewhere. That however is unacceptable in a Lexus, especially the LS. I tolerated it in the ES and GS but it REALLY bugs me in the LS.
4GS is the only firmly coil sprung Lexus I have owned.
My wife's old 2006-13 2IS250 could easily be interpreted by many inexperienced people to also be firmly sprung, but it was not firmly sprung - the old 2IS250 was very firmly "damped" only.
Like you say, I didn't find any creaks and rattles in 2016 & 2017 6.5ES, and I can't imagine too many creaks/rattles developing on this particular model over time.
I've not driven LS before.
If you're finding creaks/rattles in your latest ES/LS etc, then there are certainly other factors at play, like quality control - as you say.
However, just be careful with the damping.
Dampers are the correct term for shock absorbers.
Even though they are called shock absorbers, they actually don't absorb any shock at all; only the: tires, coil springs, roll bars, bushings and suspension subframe mounts actually absorb shock.
Damper/shock absorbers use "two-way" valving.
Dampers/shock absorbers usually have a large valve opening on compression that provides minimal resistance to oil flow on bump.
However, there is usually a very small valve opening on "rebound" such that oil is forced through a tiny orifice, to convert motion into heat, which is dissipated into the atmosphere.
Thus, dampers/shockies only control the body from floatiness by converting the bobbing up and down motion into heat.
Without dampers/shock absorbers, the vehicle would continue to bob up and down, until the vertical oscillating motion energy is dissipated by the internal friction between the molecules in the coil spring...
#35
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If customers are, in fact, complaining about this, then IMO they have a right to....it is something legitimate.
#36
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that's a shame. i hope this will prompt lexus to up their game another notch to get back the title. right or not, reliability has always been something that lexus dust everyone else in the industry since they started in 1989.
i do have to say their lexus infotainment system hasn't been that impressive. overall i still think they make very reliable cars, but others have caught up a lot
get it done, lexus!
i do have to say their lexus infotainment system hasn't been that impressive. overall i still think they make very reliable cars, but others have caught up a lot
get it done, lexus!
#37
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Hope this gets the attention of the higher ups in Toyota. As much as I love our 2013 LS, just two weeks ago I mentioned to a coworker that Lexus quality isn't what it used to be as she was considering a Lexus in the near future. I didn't like that the ambient light bulb (an LED no less) had already burnt out and I just went to the dealership this past Monday to have them fix an issue with the glove compartment door not opening all the way. They didn't charge as it was probably related to the last time they touched the car when inspecting the ambient light but it's still my time. I find the paint quality also exhibits more orange peel and chips easily too. Our LS doesn't produce any rattles that I have noticed yet but there is a strange mechanical whirring/faint clicking sound coming from behind the dash. I can only hear it when the radio is off. I was also infuriated by how the passenger seat memory managed to catch the seat belt buckle and jam the metal end into the side bolster of the seat. This happened just two weeks into our ownership and left a deep divot when I discovered it the next morning. Thank goodness I was able to massage it back out with some patience and a blowdryer, but stuff like this never happened across dozens of previous Toyota/Lexus.
I am saddened that Lexus has fallen from its perch atop the quality standings. I also agree that it is not all due to the infotainment gremlins. Modern cars are indeed highly complex pieces of machinery but automakers still find a way to set themselves apart. Sadly, Lexus is not the absolute pinnacle of quality. I'm still a fan of the LS, but can't say I'm a fan of the brand as a whole anymore.
I am saddened that Lexus has fallen from its perch atop the quality standings. I also agree that it is not all due to the infotainment gremlins. Modern cars are indeed highly complex pieces of machinery but automakers still find a way to set themselves apart. Sadly, Lexus is not the absolute pinnacle of quality. I'm still a fan of the LS, but can't say I'm a fan of the brand as a whole anymore.
As as for the paint, that surprises me. One thing my LS460 has is the smoothest, most incredible paint job I've ever had on a Lexus, markedly better than even my prior LS sedans. The paint chips easily, but they always have, that's why I got the clear bra this time.
Originally Posted by peteharvey
Like you say, I didn't find any creaks and rattles in 2016 & 2017 6.5ES, and I can't imagine too many creaks/rattles developing on this particular model over time.
Ive not driven LS before
Ive not driven LS before
Im surprised you've never driven the LS given how focused you are on a compliant suspension. It's on a whole other level when it comes to ride and refinement from the rest of the lineup.
Last edited by SW17LS; 06-21-17 at 09:13 PM.
#38
#39
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Oh, another indicator of less-than-Lexus-like quality is the clicky map and menu buttons on the RTC. They do not exude that silky smooth action of past Lexuses. The Map button feels stiff and cheap on this flagship. Still, I am more emotionally attached to our LS than any past car and that has allowed me to overlook some quibbles but it is clear Lexus doesn't build them as well as they used to or cared to build. Considering that my perception is based on a 2013 model, it doesn't surprise me that there is a downward trend manifesting in owner surveys now. Hopefully the LC and LS 500 can correct that but those are only two cars. Lexus needs to get motivated and passionate about quality again across the lineup and not just try to wow consumers on looks. What is underneath still counts a great deal.
Last edited by FatherTo1; 06-21-17 at 10:27 PM.
#40
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I worry for Lexus for these reasons:
1. Abdication of class leadership in any one area
2. Trading performance for reliability with ancient powetrains, and disappointing new turbo ones
3. Counter intuitive Infotainment systems
4. Prius tech (great, but they gave up hybrid leadership to the recent German offerings across the range...multi stage hybrid only available on LC/LS and mixed reports anyhow)
5. Ergonomics (generally a mess of too many buttons, no airplay)
6. Alfa Gulia?
It seems that the daring (Alfa), ambitious (Koreans), and aspirational (Mazda) are the ones to watch, along with Audi (seems to be climbing in various surveys), while Lexus/Toyota seems really bogged down for some reason.
The hope on the horizon may be the Supra, which, if the spy pics are to be believed, has the right mix of parts from both sides (Toyota shell and up to date German attributes).
1. Abdication of class leadership in any one area
2. Trading performance for reliability with ancient powetrains, and disappointing new turbo ones
3. Counter intuitive Infotainment systems
4. Prius tech (great, but they gave up hybrid leadership to the recent German offerings across the range...multi stage hybrid only available on LC/LS and mixed reports anyhow)
5. Ergonomics (generally a mess of too many buttons, no airplay)
6. Alfa Gulia?
It seems that the daring (Alfa), ambitious (Koreans), and aspirational (Mazda) are the ones to watch, along with Audi (seems to be climbing in various surveys), while Lexus/Toyota seems really bogged down for some reason.
The hope on the horizon may be the Supra, which, if the spy pics are to be believed, has the right mix of parts from both sides (Toyota shell and up to date German attributes).
#41
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Completely agree with this. It has been 20 years and Toyota has milked the Synergy Hybrid MG1/MG2 system for way too long. They were a pioneer and have allowed everyone to catch up. Perhaps Toyota is just stretching resources too thin with so many models to support and pursuing that top manufacturer title some years ago. What happened to that Japanese manufacturing pride? Or is this a by-product of globalization? I still consider Toyota/Lexus reliable but not to the same degree as before. I may really start to consider other brands for my wife's next car at this rate.
#42
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Completely agree with this. It has been 20 years and Toyota has milked the Synergy Hybrid MG1/MG2 system for way too long. They were a pioneer and have allowed everyone to catch up. Perhaps Toyota is just stretching resources too thin with so many models to support and pursuing that top manufacturer title some years ago. What happened to that Japanese manufacturing pride? Or is this a by-product of globalization? I still consider Toyota/Lexus reliable but not to the same degree as before. I may really start to consider other brands for my wife's next car at this rate.
Some trade durability for performance. Lexus trades performance for durability. Both are compromises here as I see it.
#43
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When I was a teenager, I was into coupes like the Mazda RX-7 and MX-6 etc.
In my 20's, I went for sub-compacts like the 323, and later, the Civic.
In my 30's, I went for compacts.
The past two decades, I went for midsizers that cruise well, but I can throw around corners and go for the occasional burn.
I will keep an eye out for the full size LS over the next decade.
Are you using standard E400 soft floaty suspension on 19" or even 20" alloys with low profile tires, or do you have the AMG Sports suspension?
There are two major components: the coil springs, and the dampers [shock absorbers].
Benz tend to use soft coils around firm dampers in their AMG Sports suspension.
In other words, the soft coils result in more compliance and compression for a smoother and more cosseting ride, but there is also more roll and weight transfer to the outside wheels such that the car "two-wheels" on the outside tires, resulting in a vehicle that doesn't handle as pin sharp to directional changes, nor as much terminal grip as its competitor the Lexus 4GS.
Meanwhile, the AMG Sport's firm dampers ensure that the vehicle does not float, ie weave up and down after hitting a bump; in other words, there is more body control.
Float is scientifically a low frequency of vertical oscillation with a slow rate of cyclic movements that is perceived as comfortable.
On the other hand, firm dampers result in a high frequency of vertical oscillation, and such rapid cyclic movements are physically tiring.
By contrast, the Lexus 4GS has both firm coils springs, and firm dampers - and this produces a flatter body attitude, with less weight transfer to the outside wheels for more four-wheel grip, hence greater agility, faster changes in direction, and more terminal grip, but at a cost to the ride, because the coils springs are taut and less compliant.
Personally, I prefer soft coils around soft dampers like the old 2005-12 3GS - which my staff drive daily.
The old 3GS is both compliant and floaty.
When we switch its electronic dampers to Sports, we end up with a soft coil spring but firmly damped ride.
Presently, there is no perfect suspension system; it is all a compromize...
_
Last edited by peteharvey; 06-22-17 at 04:05 AM.
#44
Pole Position
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For me initial quality is just not that important. It looks at issues for the first 90 days when the vehicle is under warranty. I put much more weight on the J D Power dependability study which looks at a vehicle at the three year period. here Lexus has been #1 for six years in a row. Consumer Reports also has Lexus #1 in dependability. next in importance is cost of maintenance. Here Lexus is the third least expensive to maintain behind its cousins Toyota and Scion. I am dumbfounded when someone buys a luxury car and than has to continue to pay more money to keep it running. In addition when you pay more money for a car, I guess the manufacturer assumes you will pay more for maintenance.
http://twocents.lifehacker.com/the-c...ver-1781639773
http://twocents.lifehacker.com/the-c...ver-1781639773
#45
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http://www.jdpower.com/cars/articles...tudy-key-stats
Infographic: 2017 U.S. Initial Quality Study Key Stats
June 21, 2017The J.D. Power U.S. Initial Quality StudySM (IQS), published since 1987, examines problems experienced by original vehicle owners during the 1st 90 days of ownership. Initial quality is determined by the number of problems experienced per 100 vehicles (PP100), with a lower score reflecting higher quality.This year’s study shows an 8% improvement in quality. Once again, the Korean brands outperform their Japanese, domestic, and European competitors. And, Kia ranks highest overall for a 2nd consecutive year.
In the infographic that follows, we present some key statistics and findings from the 2017 U.S. Initial Quality Study.
![](http://d1arsn5g9mfrlq.cloudfront.net/sites/default/files/2017_us-iqs_ig_061917_720.jpg)