sears1234

Lexus remind me it's like about Sony.
I once have everything from Sony in my house, TV, camera, camcorder, walkman, headphone, etc.
I suddenly find all of these things are replaced by Samsung right now.

peteharvey

That's very true.
As industrialization progresses, German labour became too expensive, so my Bang & Olufsen, Siemens and Miele etc were replace by Japanese Sony etc.
Now that industrialization and Japanese labour has become too expensive, my Sonies have largely been replaced by Korean Samsung.
One day, the Chinese may take over the South Koreans.

However, I still have my Mercedes C Class, largely thanks to the European Economic Community's EEC blockade of Japanese cars via both tariffs and limited quotas, otherwise the European automotive industry would have been totally annihilated by now.

It's a pity that no one really imposes tariffs and quotas to keep Korean Samsung from damaging Japanese Sony...

LeX2K

I hope people are not equating initial quality as reported by J.D. Power into actual reliability and durability. Lexus didn't suddenly dump all of the powertrains along with everything else and start making worse vehicles. And before you say wait other auto makers have caught up, maybe when it comes things reported on this particular survey but that certainly doesn't all of a sudden make their vehicles better than Lexus overall.

I've been hearing this for 25+ years, the other auto makers have caught up to Toyota and Lexus in respect to reliability. It has never come true.

mmarshall

25 years ago, though, outside of Honda/Acura, Toyota pretty much did rule the roost on reliability. Today, though, there is no question that other manufacturers have made huge advances, even in relation to Toyota and Lexus. Toyota may still be on top of the reliability charts in absolute numbers (data from Consumer Reports still shows that), but it is a very thin margin, and several other automakers (Porsche, Audi, Buick, Kia, etc...) are very close behind.

Toys4RJill

Yup. I agree with you. I have been hearing it for a while. Has not happened.

LeX2K

I know this is likely not true by seeing what happens to these cars that are 10, 15 and 20 years old. They don't hold up nearly as well as a Toyota. We will have to wait another 10+ years to see if this has changed, which I highly doubt.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

lexus vehicles are still excellent in quality and reliability. unfortunately though, perception matters too, and this survey, in usatoday of all places, won't help lexus continue to stand out among its peers. and when base corolla and camry may have features unavailable on a lexus flagship, or only on really expensive 'packages', something is off...

mmarshall

I'd still give (today's) Lexus high marks for a durable/reliable/refined drivetrain, excellent fit/finish, and a mirror-like paint job.....but, sorry, I can't agree with much of the rest. Other premium-vehicle manufacturers (particularly Genesis) produce a better-crafted interior, hardware/trim, and, in some cases, the solidness of the sheet metal. However, I DO have a lot of respect for what Lexus does correctly....and I strongly considered a new ES before choosing the Lacrosse. In fact, a friend of mine, whom I swim with each morning, is going to be shopping for a new ES next week...I may help him with that deal. He's ready for a new 2017, and decided he likes the present model ES more than the changes coming-out on the 2018 this fall.

Toys4RJill

When I start to see brands such as Hyundai, Mazda etc approach or exceed resale values of what Toyota or Honda as whole can command, I will then believe reliability of those brands are caught up.

As for materials and interior quality. That is subjective a lot times. Same thing with designs and what one person thinks is good materials or bad. Interior design to one might be awesome to another it might not be.

mmarshall

Resale values are determined by supply/demand for the vehicles on the used-car market, not reliability. Some vehicles with questionable reliability (BMWs and Corvettes are good examples) can bring top-dollar as used vehicles, simply from their enthusiast-reputations.

I agree that looks and design are subjective......but when you close the glove-box door (or similar compartment) in one vehicle, and it shuts/latches with tank-like solidness, then get in a competing vehicle, and the latch is so flimsy that it flies (or almost flies) back open half of the time, then that goes beyond the realm of subjectivity into the obvious.

And, if you want to feel REAL solidness (guaranteed)...........shut the door (the passenger-doors, not the glove box) on a Mercedes Gelandewagen.

peteharvey

Over the years, many people have rightfully criticized Lexus' infotainment system, but few have been detailed and clear, such that TMC haven't really been able to substantially improve the system.

The original 2003-10 BMW 5 Series used a 3-way jog dial that could select by dialling clockwise or counter clockwise, with a push to enter.
If I'm not wong, later BMW added another four ways via up/down and left/right to give a total 7-way jog dial?
Or was it always 7-ways from the very beginning?
Nevermind history, it is 7-ways now.



On the otherhand, the Lexus 2005-12 3GS rightfully went touch screen.



To this very day, Toyota continue to use ergonomic direct touchscreens in their Toyota line-up including the JDM Toyota Crown sharing the same platform and engines with the Lexus GS.



However, while the Japanese Domestic Market Toyota Crown used the ergonomic touchscreen, the equivalent 2012-19 Lexus 4GS scored a copy-cat version of the old 2003-10 BMW 5 Series dashboard, including a 5-way joystick which moves left/right, up/down, and push to enter.



That's where the similarities end.
While BMW's jog dial moves only one click and one cursor at a time, Lexus' complicated joy stick moves anywhere between zero clicks to up to 7 clicks and 7 cursors at a time, depending on the screen contents.
BMW's one click and once cursor at a time seems slow, until we simply rotate the dial to move multiple clicks and multiple cursors at a time.
This is where Lexus' five-way joystick fails.
If Lexus redesigned their joystick to only move one click and one cursor at a time, then below, it would be very clumsy to click the joystick 7 times to move seven cursor from the far left icon, to the far right icon, seven icons away.




So what Lexus does is they program the 4GS on the Menu Screen with 8-icons, so that the joystick has 7 built-in artificial clicks.
The problem here is that now the Lexus 5-way joystick becomes very inaccurate with 7 built-in clicks from left to right, such that often, we inadvertently click two icons, when we intended to only click one icon!
This is why cars use steering wheels rather than joysticks like an aeroplane.
Because a steering wheel and BMW's jog dial has more tactile mechanical input movement per on-screen output movement.

The Lexus screen below has five main icons horizontally, and in this instance, the Lexus joystick will be programmed to give four horizontal clicks from left to right.



Lexus must pay BMW patents or whatever, to obtain the BMW 7-way jog dial.
Because when moving seven icons from left to right, or up to down, the most efficient way is to have a "rotary" jog dial that can rotate clockwise/counterclockwise!

_

peteharvey

BMW uses a 2-D up/down and left/right Home Screen.
Although it is 2-D with width and height, it is only simple 2-D, based on just a simple 9-square grid.
And that's why it works so well and matched by BMW's 7-way jog dial, where the up/down & left/right joystick can only move the cursor one space & one icon at a time, because the 9-square grid only has 3 rows and 3 columns!





However, BMW's sub-menus are only 1-D up/down linear.
This is simple, yet cleverly done to match the jog dial.
Because a jog dial can only dial clockwise or counterclockwise, the jog dial is cleverly matched with a simple 1-D linear up/down sub-menu system.





Lexus tends to use 2-D up/down & left/right height and width on all their screens.
2-D screens actually display more data per page, so they are actually more efficient, by requiring less flipping between different pages.
This is good, but there are a number of issues with this design for Lexus.

Multi-Direction Joystick
Below, the red cursor is between Address and Point of Interest, if we move the Lexus joystick upwards - nothing happens!
We must move the red cursor several icons to the right, to the Previous Destinations or Right icons, in order to move the cursor upwards to the Back button!
Lexus must redesign their joystick, so that an upward movement for example, immediately moves the cursor to the row of icons above, even if that icon is not directly above the current position of the cursor.




Joystick Click Numbers
Having addressed the ability of the Lexus joystick to immediately move up/down and left/right, the next issue for Lexus is the degree of movement.
Because Lexus uses a true 2-D screen, and not just a simple 9-square grid like BMW, things become complex for Lexus.
If Lexus reprogrammed their joystick to only move one cursor and one icon at a time, then the movements would be precise, but in the screen above with six main horizontal icons, we would have to push the Lexus joystick 5 times, to move from the far left, to the far right of the main screen! Obviously this is very clumsy.
Presently, Lexus allows us to move from far left to far right, with just one push of the joystick to the right, but this is where Lexus' joystick becomes imprecise.
In this situation, the Lexus joystick is programmed to give 5 artificial clicks.
Often we only want to move one icon, and because the degree of movement provided by the joystick is so fine, we end up accidentally moving two icons!

I can only think of one way to address Lexus' problems, and that is to use BMW's matched design.
If we have a 2-D menu system, then that must be by a simple 9 square grid!
Alternatively, we could increase that to a maximum of a 4 row by 5 column grid.
With a maximum of 5 column in width, there is enough lateral movement of the joystick to make control precise.

For example, imagine if Lexus had a 100 column width?
The Lexus joystick would skip lateral movements all the time!

Lexus must think from a row by column basis.
Only 4x5 is the maximum available for good joystick control while concentrating on driving.

Lexus is NOT free to style their icons anywhere they like on the LCD screen like a personal computer!
They must simplify by using a grid-type design.
Where BMW uses a very simple 9-square grid, Lexus could use a slightly more complex 4x5 grid; 4 rows by 5 columns.
I suspect that more than 5 columns spells trouble.
Because when I must move my 4GS Main Menu Screen 7 icons to the right, the joystick is imprecise, and often inadvertently skips icons!

If Lexus wanted to fill their wide LCD screens, then perhaps Lexus could have two 4x5 grids: one 4x5 grid on the left, and a second 4x5 grid on the right.

Else, Lexus must abandon 2-D joystick control altogether, and use BMW's simple 2-D joystick with only a simple 9-square grid by moving only one icon at a time, combined with a jog dial that can move many icons at a time, but only in the one linear dimension.

When we analyze, PC's do not use joysticks as their preferred controller.
PC's actually use a "mouse", rather than joysticks or trackballs as their preferred GUI controller...

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peteharvey

Let's say I click the Delete Destination button in the Lexus 4GS.
A new screen appears with Yes or No, and a red cursor dot that is by default positioned half way above Yes and No.
I must make an additional movement of the joystick to move the cursor over the Yes button.
This is grossly poor ergonomics.

On our PC or cell phone, after clicking Delete, by default - the red cursor would be automatically positioned for convenience above the Yes button!
Lexus must improve their system.
_

peteharvey

In my old 4GS, if I want to move back, I must use the joystick to select the Back button in the center of the top row pictured below, and then click Enter - this is okay, but it is a pain.
Fortunately, the new 2016 refreshed 4.5GS has a mechanical Back button above their Menu button, and this is a welcomed ergonomic improvement for Lexus.

peteharvey

Apart from the new found Back button, the latest 2016 refreshed Lexus 4.5GS also scores two Enter buttons on the palm rest, to the left and right of the joystick.
The: Map, Menu, Back and Enter buttons, together with the Scroll Up/Down rocker - are all very very ergonomic for Lexus, and the best in their business.

Hopefully, Lexus can improve on their infotainment ergonomics to improve their user experience, and improve on their initial 90 day customer satisfaction ratings...