125k miles. Change oil at 5k or 10k?
07-10-17, 01:38 PM
#16
Technically, I can not disagree with the wisdom shared by danielTRLK.
I approach things in a lot more simple way.
For simplicity lets assume the owner will keep the vehicle for 150,000 additional miles and is weighing the choice between 10k and 15K oil change intervals [again my choice of numbers is based on simple math]
15k change --> 10 oil changes
10K change --> 15 oil changes.
I would opt of the extra 5 oil changes in say 10 - 12 years of ownership and spend the time enjoying and using the vehicle.
Salim
I approach things in a lot more simple way.
For simplicity lets assume the owner will keep the vehicle for 150,000 additional miles and is weighing the choice between 10k and 15K oil change intervals [again my choice of numbers is based on simple math]
15k change --> 10 oil changes
10K change --> 15 oil changes.
I would opt of the extra 5 oil changes in say 10 - 12 years of ownership and spend the time enjoying and using the vehicle.
Salim
07-10-17, 04:48 PM
#17
Interesting discussions about oil analysis and Blackstone Labs. Many people are quite happy just changing oil/filter at specified intervals, but then there are some of us weird engineer types (like me - an engine builder) who have this uncontrollable urge to know what is happening inside their engines!!
I do UOA on my vehicles and use Wear Check labs.
These are my results on my 2015 RX350 since new. The most recent oil/filter change was at 14,281Km (8874 miles) and was ~ twice as long as previous changes. Based on the analysis (hopefully more accurate than Blackstone??) - the oil was still OK for further service.
Jim
I do UOA on my vehicles and use Wear Check labs.
These are my results on my 2015 RX350 since new. The most recent oil/filter change was at 14,281Km (8874 miles) and was ~ twice as long as previous changes. Based on the analysis (hopefully more accurate than Blackstone??) - the oil was still OK for further service.
Jim
07-10-17, 05:07 PM
#18
Interesting discussions about oil analysis and Blackstone Labs. Many people are quite happy just changing oil/filter at specified intervals, but then there are some of us weird engineer types (like me - an engine builder) who have this uncontrollable urge to know what is happening inside their engines!!
I do UOA on my vehicles and use Wear Check labs.
These are my results on my 2015 RX350 since new. The most recent oil/filter change was at 14,281Km (8874 miles) and was ~ twice as long as previous changes. Based on the analysis (hopefully more accurate than Blackstone??) - the oil was still OK for further service.
Jim
I do UOA on my vehicles and use Wear Check labs.
These are my results on my 2015 RX350 since new. The most recent oil/filter change was at 14,281Km (8874 miles) and was ~ twice as long as previous changes. Based on the analysis (hopefully more accurate than Blackstone??) - the oil was still OK for further service.
Jim
07-10-17, 06:18 PM
#20
I'm with you Salim ! For the average person with the average mileage the oil test is a waste of money. What with the cost of the test and the time you spend taking samples for 5 litres of oil ? It makes sense if your rigs take 60 litres of oil and are always on the go. As I said it makes no sense to me, but we are all free to chose our ways, if one wants to exact the maximum use out those 5 litres of oil great, I have better ways to spend my time
Interesting discussions about oil analysis and Blackstone Labs. Many people are quite happy just changing oil/filter at specified intervals, but then there are some of us weird engineer types (like me - an engine builder) who have this uncontrollable urge to know what is happening inside their engines!!
I do UOA on my vehicles and use Wear Check labs.
These are my results on my 2015 RX350 since new. The most recent oil/filter change was at 14,281Km (8874 miles) and was ~ twice as long as previous changes. Based on the analysis (hopefully more accurate than Blackstone??) - the oil was still OK for further service.
Jim
I do UOA on my vehicles and use Wear Check labs.
These are my results on my 2015 RX350 since new. The most recent oil/filter change was at 14,281Km (8874 miles) and was ~ twice as long as previous changes. Based on the analysis (hopefully more accurate than Blackstone??) - the oil was still OK for further service.
Jim
So I'll start off with some basics and try not to get too indepth for time's sake. How did you break this engine in? I'm seeing this engine was never fully and properly broken in. We're going to continue seeing elevated copper and Iron reading on this engine until we get it broken in. Ultimately this will cost you money in fuel economy, power and needless wear shortenting the lifespan of this engine.
We have no idea how much fuel is actually in this oil, as they're using FTIR and hot plate crackle for water & fuel in oil. I need Gas Chromatagraphy and Karl Fischer to see fueling conditions, piston ring seal and combustion dynamic efficiency. Today's oil and fuels are very complex. FTIR and hot plate crackle just don't even come close.
The silicon is elevated and needlessly causing wear. Amsoil SS generally starts out with 6-7ppm of silicon. At 35, this is elevated and we will want to get this down to around 10-15ppm. At the beginning you can see, gasket making material, break in additives and break in materials from the factory and they should have been flushed by your third oil change. The fact that we are still at 35 is not good. You can correct this by getting a new air filter in this engine.
Your acid and base are holding up well. However we have no AntiWear measurement, everyone gets stuck on the TBN value, not understanding this is the base stock, the last to deteriorate. The additive will be the first to sheer since there is much less of it, without an AW measure, we have no idea if there is active additive, even though we see the add pack in the elemental values, CAL ZINC PHOS as ZDTP and not ZDDP. This is why FTIR is so crucial, it allows us to see the oil in the molecular level and not just the elemental level.
I have no indication for how they measure their nitration and oxidation, nor do I have reference since I don't know if they're on PE, Thermo or SpectroSCI equipment, etc. So I can't give you reference there. But by the looks, it looks like you're running a rich A/F ratio. I have no idea how their machines correlate nor do I have other references GC/KF/FP to correlate this against those values. They've left us blind here.
Your viscosity is holding up great, this is a testament to Amsoil Signiture Series viscosity improvers and base stock. This is a solid oil, but I would like to see some better testing to give us a full depth insight into what's actually happening. Don't let this engine wear more than necessary, I know you care for this car and it shows, let's work towards getting it to burn clean, save your money and do one UOA a year, cheaper than doing one every time and still being blind to what's happening.
What air filter, oil filter and fuel do you use. Do you use any additives?
07-10-17, 07:00 PM
#21
Daniel
I really appreciate your perspectives. It is great to read some clear factual assessments.
To answer your questions:
1. I did not baby the vehicle during break-in. Many full throttle accelerations but not at high revs and allowing thermal stabilization between pulls to ensure I didn't overheat the rings. After break-in, I still do not baby the engine - probably because I drive somewhat aggressively including some high powered Mopars (eg a '69 Barracuda with a 6.1 L Hemi!!)
2. Up until the last change, the original Toyota filter was in the vehicle. It did look fairly clean when I changed it for a Mahle LX3230 filter.
3. I agree, the silicon seems high, however I usually normalize contamination and wear results to ppm/1000Km to see if there is an improving or deteriorating trend. In applying this to silicon, the rates in ppm/1000Km are 38, 12.3, 4.8 and finally 2.5 in the latest analysis. Certainly seems to be improving?? Will see what the new filter does. Maybe, I'll take the filter out again to make sure there are no paths around the filter.
4. I've been using Amsoil Ea15K02 oil filters and no additives and regular fuel (with some ethanol)
Thanks again
Jim
I really appreciate your perspectives. It is great to read some clear factual assessments.
To answer your questions:
1. I did not baby the vehicle during break-in. Many full throttle accelerations but not at high revs and allowing thermal stabilization between pulls to ensure I didn't overheat the rings. After break-in, I still do not baby the engine - probably because I drive somewhat aggressively including some high powered Mopars (eg a '69 Barracuda with a 6.1 L Hemi!!)
2. Up until the last change, the original Toyota filter was in the vehicle. It did look fairly clean when I changed it for a Mahle LX3230 filter.
3. I agree, the silicon seems high, however I usually normalize contamination and wear results to ppm/1000Km to see if there is an improving or deteriorating trend. In applying this to silicon, the rates in ppm/1000Km are 38, 12.3, 4.8 and finally 2.5 in the latest analysis. Certainly seems to be improving?? Will see what the new filter does. Maybe, I'll take the filter out again to make sure there are no paths around the filter.
4. I've been using Amsoil Ea15K02 oil filters and no additives and regular fuel (with some ethanol)
Thanks again
Jim
07-10-17, 08:18 PM
#22
Daniel
I really appreciate your perspectives. It is great to read some clear factual assessments.
To answer your questions:
1. I did not baby the vehicle during break-in. Many full throttle accelerations but not at high revs and allowing thermal stabilization between pulls to ensure I didn't overheat the rings. After break-in, I still do not baby the engine - probably because I drive somewhat aggressively including some high powered Mopars (eg a '69 Barracuda with a 6.1 L Hemi!!)
2. Up until the last change, the original Toyota filter was in the vehicle. It did look fairly clean when I changed it for a Mahle LX3230 filter.
3. I agree, the silicon seems high, however I usually normalize contamination and wear results to ppm/1000Km to see if there is an improving or deteriorating trend. In applying this to silicon, the rates in ppm/1000Km are 38, 12.3, 4.8 and finally 2.5 in the latest analysis. Certainly seems to be improving?? Will see what the new filter does. Maybe, I'll take the filter out again to make sure there are no paths around the filter.
4. I've been using Amsoil Ea15K02 oil filters and no additives and regular fuel (with some ethanol)
Thanks again
Jim
I really appreciate your perspectives. It is great to read some clear factual assessments.
To answer your questions:
1. I did not baby the vehicle during break-in. Many full throttle accelerations but not at high revs and allowing thermal stabilization between pulls to ensure I didn't overheat the rings. After break-in, I still do not baby the engine - probably because I drive somewhat aggressively including some high powered Mopars (eg a '69 Barracuda with a 6.1 L Hemi!!)
2. Up until the last change, the original Toyota filter was in the vehicle. It did look fairly clean when I changed it for a Mahle LX3230 filter.
3. I agree, the silicon seems high, however I usually normalize contamination and wear results to ppm/1000Km to see if there is an improving or deteriorating trend. In applying this to silicon, the rates in ppm/1000Km are 38, 12.3, 4.8 and finally 2.5 in the latest analysis. Certainly seems to be improving?? Will see what the new filter does. Maybe, I'll take the filter out again to make sure there are no paths around the filter.
4. I've been using Amsoil Ea15K02 oil filters and no additives and regular fuel (with some ethanol)
Thanks again
Jim
2. Problem is our eyes arn't microscopes, by the time you can see things it's well past what I would have seen with a machine. Cheapest air filters you can buy every 10K. You have no insolubles testing for this sample so we don't know where you sit in that regards, but the elevated silicon is not good. I'll call out a fouled spark plug, 25K before a certified tech will, these machines look at atoms and molecules we as humans can't even feel, let alone see.
3. I typically like the engine air filter designs from Lexus, except on the RC F. I would be suspicious of you having an air box leak with such low mileage, albeit possible. I normally look at regions and there are different contaminants in the air in different places, even the dirt composition in Ontario is different from LA and different from Miami. That's the problem most have, automotive wear and contaminants are not linear, so they can't be measured in that manner. It's why automotive UOA is so tough to interpret and few get it right. While it did come down, that was to be expected from the gasket making materials and other compounds in a fresh engine. But you've had four oil changes at this point, all of my customers are able to drop to 7-10ppm by the third oil change. This is also attributed to some of your ring seal issues.
4. Switch to a Purolator or WIX XP filter, I personally find the WIX to do better but some have "brand" preferences. The Amsoil is good but WIX XP will out perform. I have "real world results" preferences. Better filtration of this oil will mitigate some of your issues.
5. What do you mean by some ethanol? Regular fuel as in 87? What brand?
edit: Also forgot to mention, look at your viscosity. Note how it's holding grade much better. This is due to your seating of the engine. They should have run fuel % or GC on your first samples as 6.9 and 7.2 is likely very high fuels dilution. Amsoil's SS has great viscosity improvers in the formula and holds up very well, it performs like Mobil in this regards and does not easily sheer. How much in USD did this wearcheck cost, if you don't mind me asking.
Last edited by danielTRLK; 07-10-17 at 08:24 PM.
07-11-17, 01:58 AM
#23
Moderator
Interesting discussions about oil analysis and Blackstone Labs. Many people are quite happy just changing oil/filter at specified intervals, but then there are some of us weird engineer types (like me - an engine builder) who have this uncontrollable urge to know what is happening inside their engines!!
I do UOA on my vehicles and use Wear Check labs.
These are my results on my 2015 RX350 since new. The most recent oil/filter change was at 14,281Km (8874 miles) and was ~ twice as long as previous changes. Based on the analysis (hopefully more accurate than Blackstone??) - the oil was still OK for further service.
Jim
I do UOA on my vehicles and use Wear Check labs.
These are my results on my 2015 RX350 since new. The most recent oil/filter change was at 14,281Km (8874 miles) and was ~ twice as long as previous changes. Based on the analysis (hopefully more accurate than Blackstone??) - the oil was still OK for further service.
Jim
... that would be scientific types. Scientists will go for accuracy, while the engineer will come up with an economic (time and money) solution and a bit of margin and move on.Salim
07-11-17, 03:03 AM
#24
Pole Position
WOW!! You know your stuff!!! 👍👍👍👍
This engine needs to be broken in at this point with an aggressive method. You really need to do a few pulls in forth/fifth gear(I don't know what speed forth pulls until) until you redline 3-4 times(that's the basic premise). These rings never seated properly, if they had we would have seen the chromium and nickel from the wrist pins and rings, having never seen any signs of nickel or chromium in this engine concerns me and indicates it's not seated properly. It's why your iron and copper reading are elevated due to likely fuel dilution taking effect and will remain elevated until the engine seats entirely. There is a break in procedure we can still do at this point to get it better seated and improve that ring seal. Not doing so will continue to affect these engine and cause it needless long term wear. There is also some oil pump wear here and we can stop it, it's not harmful or damaging yet, but will be if allowed.
2. Problem is our eyes arn't microscopes, by the time you can see things it's well past what I would have seen with a machine. Cheapest air filters you can buy every 10K. You have no insolubles testing for this sample so we don't know where you sit in that regards, but the elevated silicon is not good. I'll call out a fouled spark plug, 25K before a certified tech will, these machines look at atoms and molecules we as humans can't even feel, let alone see.
3. I typically like the engine air filter designs from Lexus, except on the RC F. I would be suspicious of you having an air box leak with such low mileage, albeit possible. I normally look at regions and there are different contaminants in the air in different places, even the dirt composition in Ontario is different from LA and different from Miami. That's the problem most have, automotive wear and contaminants are not linear, so they can't be measured in that manner. It's why automotive UOA is so tough to interpret and few get it right. While it did come down, that was to be expected from the gasket making materials and other compounds in a fresh engine. But you've had four oil changes at this point, all of my customers are able to drop to 7-10ppm by the third oil change. This is also attributed to some of your ring seal issues.
4. Switch to a Purolator or WIX XP filter, I personally find the WIX to do better but some have "brand" preferences. The Amsoil is good but WIX XP will out perform. I have "real world results" preferences. Better filtration of this oil will mitigate some of your issues.
5. What do you mean by some ethanol? Regular fuel as in 87? What brand?
edit: Also forgot to mention, look at your viscosity. Note how it's holding grade much better. This is due to your seating of the engine. They should have run fuel % or GC on your first samples as 6.9 and 7.2 is likely very high fuels dilution. Amsoil's SS has great viscosity improvers in the formula and holds up very well, it performs like Mobil in this regards and does not easily sheer. How much in USD did this wearcheck cost, if you don't mind me asking.
2. Problem is our eyes arn't microscopes, by the time you can see things it's well past what I would have seen with a machine. Cheapest air filters you can buy every 10K. You have no insolubles testing for this sample so we don't know where you sit in that regards, but the elevated silicon is not good. I'll call out a fouled spark plug, 25K before a certified tech will, these machines look at atoms and molecules we as humans can't even feel, let alone see.
3. I typically like the engine air filter designs from Lexus, except on the RC F. I would be suspicious of you having an air box leak with such low mileage, albeit possible. I normally look at regions and there are different contaminants in the air in different places, even the dirt composition in Ontario is different from LA and different from Miami. That's the problem most have, automotive wear and contaminants are not linear, so they can't be measured in that manner. It's why automotive UOA is so tough to interpret and few get it right. While it did come down, that was to be expected from the gasket making materials and other compounds in a fresh engine. But you've had four oil changes at this point, all of my customers are able to drop to 7-10ppm by the third oil change. This is also attributed to some of your ring seal issues.
4. Switch to a Purolator or WIX XP filter, I personally find the WIX to do better but some have "brand" preferences. The Amsoil is good but WIX XP will out perform. I have "real world results" preferences. Better filtration of this oil will mitigate some of your issues.
5. What do you mean by some ethanol? Regular fuel as in 87? What brand?
edit: Also forgot to mention, look at your viscosity. Note how it's holding grade much better. This is due to your seating of the engine. They should have run fuel % or GC on your first samples as 6.9 and 7.2 is likely very high fuels dilution. Amsoil's SS has great viscosity improvers in the formula and holds up very well, it performs like Mobil in this regards and does not easily sheer. How much in USD did this wearcheck cost, if you don't mind me asking.
07-11-17, 04:23 AM
#26
Cocal, I would have to ask why it's a waste of money? A good UOA once a year every other year points out many things. I can tell from your oil when your timing belt/chain are off, when your spark plugs are fouled, when you're driving hard, if your injectors are healthy, and much much more. Short term if I increase your fuel economy by selecting an appropriate oil, filter and fuel that increases your fuel economy by only 2 mpg. Over the course of two years, that could be as little as $200 in saved cash. If we increase your OCI to a proper one, saving you 1/3 money spent on service and oil, then is it worth it? Is it worth it to your children's future on this planet so use less oil, reduce emissions and put extra hard earned $$ in your pocket? People frequently say it won't happen to me, yet there's a lady on the ES forums blew her engine, now it's $5800 to repair USED. I wish we had connected before it blew, I would have saved her lots of $$$. If you lease cars and are never out of warranty, then you could argue the only gains I'd make for you are environmental and fuel economy. If you own your RX and will ever be out of warranty, a good UOA(not blackstone) will greatly help. For most, the automobile, will be there second most expensive expense. There's lots of people with engine issues with a Lexus and Toyota, I bought an RC F, because I wanted a reliable sporty car. It doesn't mean it'll never have issues. That's like the guy who says prostate exams arn't worth it because well, he's healthy. Having only seen Blackstone, I understand you've likely never see a real UOA.
I however did not like the standard oil filter and when I had mi 1st oil change I changed to a TRD product that is much better IMO. This is a great discussion ! All the best.
07-11-17, 11:07 AM
#29
This engine needs to be broken in at this point with an aggressive method. You really need to do a few pulls in forth/fifth gear(I don't know what speed forth pulls until) until you redline 3-4 times(that's the basic premise). These rings never seated properly, if they had we would have seen the chromium and nickel from the wrist pins and rings, having never seen any signs of nickel or chromium in this engine concerns me and indicates it's not seated properly. It's why your iron and copper reading are elevated due to likely fuel dilution taking effect and will remain elevated until the engine seats entirely. There is a break in procedure we can still do at this point to get it better seated and improve that ring seal. Not doing so will continue to affect these engine and cause it needless long term wear. There is also some oil pump wear here and we can stop it, it's not harmful or damaging yet, but will be if allowed.
2. Problem is our eyes arn't microscopes, by the time you can see things it's well past what I would have seen with a machine. Cheapest air filters you can buy every 10K. You have no insolubles testing for this sample so we don't know where you sit in that regards, but the elevated silicon is not good. I'll call out a fouled spark plug, 25K before a certified tech will, these machines look at atoms and molecules we as humans can't even feel, let alone see.
3. I typically like the engine air filter designs from Lexus, except on the RC F. I would be suspicious of you having an air box leak with such low mileage, albeit possible. I normally look at regions and there are different contaminants in the air in different places, even the dirt composition in Ontario is different from LA and different from Miami. That's the problem most have, automotive wear and contaminants are not linear, so they can't be measured in that manner. It's why automotive UOA is so tough to interpret and few get it right. While it did come down, that was to be expected from the gasket making materials and other compounds in a fresh engine. But you've had four oil changes at this point, all of my customers are able to drop to 7-10ppm by the third oil change. This is also attributed to some of your ring seal issues.
4. Switch to a Purolator or WIX XP filter, I personally find the WIX to do better but some have "brand" preferences. The Amsoil is good but WIX XP will out perform. I have "real world results" preferences. Better filtration of this oil will mitigate some of your issues.
5. What do you mean by some ethanol? Regular fuel as in 87? What brand?
edit: Also forgot to mention, look at your viscosity. Note how it's holding grade much better. This is due to your seating of the engine. They should have run fuel % or GC on your first samples as 6.9 and 7.2 is likely very high fuels dilution. Amsoil's SS has great viscosity improvers in the formula and holds up very well, it performs like Mobil in this regards and does not easily sheer. How much in USD did this wearcheck cost, if you don't mind me asking.
2. Problem is our eyes arn't microscopes, by the time you can see things it's well past what I would have seen with a machine. Cheapest air filters you can buy every 10K. You have no insolubles testing for this sample so we don't know where you sit in that regards, but the elevated silicon is not good. I'll call out a fouled spark plug, 25K before a certified tech will, these machines look at atoms and molecules we as humans can't even feel, let alone see.
3. I typically like the engine air filter designs from Lexus, except on the RC F. I would be suspicious of you having an air box leak with such low mileage, albeit possible. I normally look at regions and there are different contaminants in the air in different places, even the dirt composition in Ontario is different from LA and different from Miami. That's the problem most have, automotive wear and contaminants are not linear, so they can't be measured in that manner. It's why automotive UOA is so tough to interpret and few get it right. While it did come down, that was to be expected from the gasket making materials and other compounds in a fresh engine. But you've had four oil changes at this point, all of my customers are able to drop to 7-10ppm by the third oil change. This is also attributed to some of your ring seal issues.
4. Switch to a Purolator or WIX XP filter, I personally find the WIX to do better but some have "brand" preferences. The Amsoil is good but WIX XP will out perform. I have "real world results" preferences. Better filtration of this oil will mitigate some of your issues.
5. What do you mean by some ethanol? Regular fuel as in 87? What brand?
edit: Also forgot to mention, look at your viscosity. Note how it's holding grade much better. This is due to your seating of the engine. They should have run fuel % or GC on your first samples as 6.9 and 7.2 is likely very high fuels dilution. Amsoil's SS has great viscosity improvers in the formula and holds up very well, it performs like Mobil in this regards and does not easily sheer. How much in USD did this wearcheck cost, if you don't mind me asking.
1. I was 99% sure this engine is broken in. I've done many, many full throttle to redline pulls. However, a few more won't hurt.
2. I tried to find specs (eg beta ratio) on the Wix XP filter and could not find any. That is the main problem with most oil filters - lots of marketing hype but no filtration facts to back them up. Do you have any specs on either filter??
3. Fuel is regular 87 and usually Shell which has "up to 10% ethanol"
4. Cost per sample is $35 CDN or $27 USD
Jim
07-11-17, 12:27 PM
#30
Daniel
1. I was 99% sure this engine is broken in. I've done many, many full throttle to redline pulls. However, a few more won't hurt.
2. I tried to find specs (eg beta ratio) on the Wix XP filter and could not find any. That is the main problem with most oil filters - lots of marketing hype but no filtration facts to back them up. Do you have any specs on either filter??
3. Fuel is regular 87 and usually Shell which has "up to 10% ethanol"
4. Cost per sample is $35 CDN or $27 USD
Jim
1. I was 99% sure this engine is broken in. I've done many, many full throttle to redline pulls. However, a few more won't hurt.
2. I tried to find specs (eg beta ratio) on the Wix XP filter and could not find any. That is the main problem with most oil filters - lots of marketing hype but no filtration facts to back them up. Do you have any specs on either filter??
3. Fuel is regular 87 and usually Shell which has "up to 10% ethanol"
4. Cost per sample is $35 CDN or $27 USD
Jim
Had to get it from a Toyota dealer as Lexus dealer couldn't order it it's about $20 before tax, I like its construction and the fact that the medium is synthetic. All reports on TRD parts point to the excellence of the products.