Growing number of states are imposing new fees on electric vehicles
07-10-17, 09:15 PM
#31
Lexus Test Driver
Yeah, a lot of the anti-EV rhetoric focuses on how environmentally damaging batteries are or how EVs could crash the grid - no citations though. A well to wheel analysis will show how environmentally damaging gasoline production is, all the way from digging up crude oil to getting it distributed to local stations, but the anti-EV crowd conveniently ignores all that.
So if EVs are so bad, what's the alternative? Burning more gas? Hydrogen fuel cells?
So if EVs are so bad, what's the alternative? Burning more gas? Hydrogen fuel cells?
07-11-17, 12:26 AM
#33
E15 is a very bad idea for cars with fuel systems designed only for E10 (and most are even today). I'm happy to continue using E10 for the sake of reliability.
The idea that the electric grid will crash from all the electric cars being plugged in is laughable. Not to mention we're not anywhere near the scale of EV adoption where that would even be a science fiction reality. And the electrical grid will be going through many changes before most cars on the road are pure EV's.
Hydrogen fuel cells currently make more sense for controlled route commercial vehicles such as semi trucks and passenger or freight rail since refueling stations would be placed along common routes. A hydrogen fuel infrastructure is great to build but for the time being the issue is that it takes more energy to produce the hydrogen than the hydrogen gives back through fuel cell stacks. Although there is one process I read about sometime last year that did not have this problem. It used a photosynthesis process mainly and did not take excessive energy to produce the hydrogen. The only rub is that as demonstrated at the time it was a steady but very slow process and as such wasn't suitable for large scale production of H2.
The idea that the electric grid will crash from all the electric cars being plugged in is laughable. Not to mention we're not anywhere near the scale of EV adoption where that would even be a science fiction reality. And the electrical grid will be going through many changes before most cars on the road are pure EV's.
Hydrogen fuel cells currently make more sense for controlled route commercial vehicles such as semi trucks and passenger or freight rail since refueling stations would be placed along common routes. A hydrogen fuel infrastructure is great to build but for the time being the issue is that it takes more energy to produce the hydrogen than the hydrogen gives back through fuel cell stacks. Although there is one process I read about sometime last year that did not have this problem. It used a photosynthesis process mainly and did not take excessive energy to produce the hydrogen. The only rub is that as demonstrated at the time it was a steady but very slow process and as such wasn't suitable for large scale production of H2.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 07-11-17 at 12:32 AM.
07-11-17, 02:49 AM
#34
E15 is a very bad idea for cars with fuel systems designed only for E10 (and most are even today). I'm happy to continue using E10 for the sake of reliability.
The idea that the electric grid will crash from all the electric cars being plugged in is laughable. Not to mention we're not anywhere near the scale of EV adoption where that would even be a science fiction reality. And the electrical grid will be going through many changes before most cars on the road are pure EV's.
Hydrogen fuel cells currently make more sense for controlled route commercial vehicles such as semi trucks and passenger or freight rail since refueling stations would be placed along common routes. A hydrogen fuel infrastructure is great to build but for the time being the issue is that it takes more energy to produce the hydrogen than the hydrogen gives back through fuel cell stacks. Although there is one process I read about sometime last year that did not have this problem. It used a photosynthesis process mainly and did not take excessive energy to produce the hydrogen. The only rub is that as demonstrated at the time it was a steady but very slow process and as such wasn't suitable for large scale production of H2.
The idea that the electric grid will crash from all the electric cars being plugged in is laughable. Not to mention we're not anywhere near the scale of EV adoption where that would even be a science fiction reality. And the electrical grid will be going through many changes before most cars on the road are pure EV's.
Hydrogen fuel cells currently make more sense for controlled route commercial vehicles such as semi trucks and passenger or freight rail since refueling stations would be placed along common routes. A hydrogen fuel infrastructure is great to build but for the time being the issue is that it takes more energy to produce the hydrogen than the hydrogen gives back through fuel cell stacks. Although there is one process I read about sometime last year that did not have this problem. It used a photosynthesis process mainly and did not take excessive energy to produce the hydrogen. The only rub is that as demonstrated at the time it was a steady but very slow process and as such wasn't suitable for large scale production of H2.
John Goodenough supposedly has a new battery tech multiple times the capacity of life of lithium.
07-11-17, 10:55 AM
#35
Pole Position
Yeah, a lot of the anti-EV rhetoric focuses on how environmentally damaging batteries are or how EVs could crash the grid - no citations though. A well to wheel analysis will show how environmentally damaging gasoline production is, all the way from digging up crude oil to getting it distributed to local stations, but the anti-EV crowd conveniently ignores all that.
So if EVs are so bad, what's the alternative? Burning more gas? Hydrogen fuel cells?
So if EVs are so bad, what's the alternative? Burning more gas? Hydrogen fuel cells?
07-11-17, 10:03 PM
#36
Lexus Test Driver
If you're looking for a 5 minute full charge, you're a long ways away from crashing the grid because the tech won't be here for decades. Neither will the need - most EV buyers have short daily commutes and they're fine with slow charging at home. Now a Bolt or Model 3 bring 200 mile range to the less well-heeled, so range isn't a concern unless you're doing a cross country trip without charging stations in between. It'll be a tiny percentage of EV drivers who would need a full recharge in a very short time.
Huge environmental benefits like not having smog covering cities in summer and winter? Or how about the option to use solar, wind and hydro power for charging?
Anyway, try driving a hybrid, then go test drive a Tesla or a Bolt. It just might change your mind about EVs.
Huge environmental benefits like not having smog covering cities in summer and winter? Or how about the option to use solar, wind and hydro power for charging?
Anyway, try driving a hybrid, then go test drive a Tesla or a Bolt. It just might change your mind about EVs.
07-12-17, 01:51 AM
#37
John Goodenough has that battery tech coming soon!
In my opinion, EV will take over the consumer market, while enthusiasts and rural environments will have gasoline options. Heavy Duty trucking will go Natural Gas and Methane. Locomotives will go biodiesel more than they already are eventually going natural gas with EV mix. I think lots of people get stuck on one tech, the likely hood of that happening is in my opinion, not likely. I think we will have a diverse range of EV, natural gas, biofuels.
It's entirely possible synthetic fuel might come in time for us to see a major switch, in my opinion that will likely be what's used in the future at gas station if ICE stick around. If John Goodenough comes through in time before his death, then all bets are off and EV will likely seize the entire market overnight. Also, remember lots of push backs from big oil, it's not like Shell & BP don't own a majority of the solar tech patents out there but they'd rather stick to oil.......
In my opinion, EV will take over the consumer market, while enthusiasts and rural environments will have gasoline options. Heavy Duty trucking will go Natural Gas and Methane. Locomotives will go biodiesel more than they already are eventually going natural gas with EV mix. I think lots of people get stuck on one tech, the likely hood of that happening is in my opinion, not likely. I think we will have a diverse range of EV, natural gas, biofuels.
It's entirely possible synthetic fuel might come in time for us to see a major switch, in my opinion that will likely be what's used in the future at gas station if ICE stick around. If John Goodenough comes through in time before his death, then all bets are off and EV will likely seize the entire market overnight. Also, remember lots of push backs from big oil, it's not like Shell & BP don't own a majority of the solar tech patents out there but they'd rather stick to oil.......
07-12-17, 06:49 AM
#38
Lexus Fanatic
Where is all of the electrical-generating capacity going to come from to charge all of these millions of automotive battery power-packs? 
On pure electric vehicles (as opposed to hybrids), they won't have a gas engine to recharge them when they drain. Many of our power-stations are highly-stressed as it is during period of extreme heat or cold, when millions of homes have their furnaces and air-conditioners running constantly....adding the drain of recharging all those auto-batteries will probably produce widespread brownouts or blackouts.
On pure electric vehicles (as opposed to hybrids), they won't have a gas engine to recharge them when they drain. Many of our power-stations are highly-stressed as it is during period of extreme heat or cold, when millions of homes have their furnaces and air-conditioners running constantly....adding the drain of recharging all those auto-batteries will probably produce widespread brownouts or blackouts.
07-12-17, 07:13 AM
#39
Pole Position
If you're looking for a 5 minute full charge, you're a long ways away from crashing the grid because the tech won't be here for decades. Neither will the need - most EV buyers have short daily commutes and they're fine with slow charging at home. Now a Bolt or Model 3 bring 200 mile range to the less well-heeled, so range isn't a concern unless you're doing a cross country trip without charging stations in between. It'll be a tiny percentage of EV drivers who would need a full recharge in a very short time.
Huge environmental benefits like not having smog covering cities in summer and winter? Or how about the option to use solar, wind and hydro power for charging?
Anyway, try driving a hybrid, then go test drive a Tesla or a Bolt. It just might change your mind about EVs.
Huge environmental benefits like not having smog covering cities in summer and winter? Or how about the option to use solar, wind and hydro power for charging?
Anyway, try driving a hybrid, then go test drive a Tesla or a Bolt. It just might change your mind about EVs.
07-12-17, 07:16 AM
#40
Pole Position
John Goodenough has that battery tech coming soon!
In my opinion, EV will take over the consumer market, while enthusiasts and rural environments will have gasoline options. Heavy Duty trucking will go Natural Gas and Methane. Locomotives will go biodiesel more than they already are eventually going natural gas with EV mix. I think lots of people get stuck on one tech, the likely hood of that happening is in my opinion, not likely. I think we will have a diverse range of EV, natural gas, biofuels.
It's entirely possible synthetic fuel might come in time for us to see a major switch, in my opinion that will likely be what's used in the future at gas station if ICE stick around. If John Goodenough comes through in time before his death, then all bets are off and EV will likely seize the entire market overnight. Also, remember lots of push backs from big oil, it's not like Shell & BP don't own a majority of the solar tech patents out there but they'd rather stick to oil.......
In my opinion, EV will take over the consumer market, while enthusiasts and rural environments will have gasoline options. Heavy Duty trucking will go Natural Gas and Methane. Locomotives will go biodiesel more than they already are eventually going natural gas with EV mix. I think lots of people get stuck on one tech, the likely hood of that happening is in my opinion, not likely. I think we will have a diverse range of EV, natural gas, biofuels.
It's entirely possible synthetic fuel might come in time for us to see a major switch, in my opinion that will likely be what's used in the future at gas station if ICE stick around. If John Goodenough comes through in time before his death, then all bets are off and EV will likely seize the entire market overnight. Also, remember lots of push backs from big oil, it's not like Shell & BP don't own a majority of the solar tech patents out there but they'd rather stick to oil.......
EVs makes sense for city dwellers but where will those same city dwellers charge their cars? In NY, there are private garages with maybe 2 spaces for charging. Owning an EV for the city usually means you will need a second car if you want to go on a roadtrip or anywhere remotely not at home. Until battery and the infrastructure can support EVs and make it a turn key experience without changing people's habits, it will not take off.
07-12-17, 07:49 AM
#41
Lexus Test Driver
Not take off for you, maybe, but not for the majority of car buyers out there. Personally, I won't be switching to an EV in the near future because I live in an apartment complex that doesn't have charging points. However, that's not a big issue because most newer buildings are built with EV chargers in mind. In London and some parts of Europe, street side charging using lamp posts is already available, and most people in that part of the world don't have their own garages.
As for road trips, they're already doable with Teslas and with Bolts to a lesser extent. Maybe we're both on the same page about EVs not saving the world - I'd say we need to reduce our transport miles, no matter what power source our vehicles use, instead of just switching from fossil fuels to electricity. A city full of gridlocked EVs is still a crappy place to live in.
As for road trips, they're already doable with Teslas and with Bolts to a lesser extent. Maybe we're both on the same page about EVs not saving the world - I'd say we need to reduce our transport miles, no matter what power source our vehicles use, instead of just switching from fossil fuels to electricity. A city full of gridlocked EVs is still a crappy place to live in.
07-12-17, 07:56 AM
#42
Well you guys must not like EV!
What everyone here here is forgetting is ICE have been refined for over 150 years now. Our battery tech is barely more advanced than what was around in the 1850's. John Goodenough, if he comes through would turn a Tesla into a 1500 mile range vehicle, that charges in 30 minutes.
Big oil oil is fighting EV hard, they're going to lose most of their market soon though. It's only a matter of time before electric makes a breakthrough. If we were in WW3, that tech would appear overnight.
What everyone here here is forgetting is ICE have been refined for over 150 years now. Our battery tech is barely more advanced than what was around in the 1850's. John Goodenough, if he comes through would turn a Tesla into a 1500 mile range vehicle, that charges in 30 minutes.
Big oil oil is fighting EV hard, they're going to lose most of their market soon though. It's only a matter of time before electric makes a breakthrough. If we were in WW3, that tech would appear overnight.
07-12-17, 07:58 AM
#43
Where is all of the electrical-generating capacity going to come from to charge all of these millions of automotive battery power-packs? On pure electric vehicles (as opposed to hybrids), they won't have a gas engine to recharge them when they drain. Many of our power-stations are highly-stressed as it is during period of extreme heat or cold, when millions of homes have their furnaces and air-conditioners running constantly....adding the drain of recharging all those auto-batteries will probably produce widespread brownouts or blackouts.
On pure electric vehicles (as opposed to hybrids), they won't have a gas engine to recharge them when they drain. Many of our power-stations are highly-stressed as it is during period of extreme heat or cold, when millions of homes have their furnaces and air-conditioners running constantly....adding the drain of recharging all those auto-batteries will probably produce widespread brownouts or blackouts.
07-12-17, 01:39 PM
#44
Lexus Champion
Let's not use the excuse of the lack of EV charging infrastructure to do nothing. This is laziness.
Before we go and claim that the sky will fall if we plug in more EVs, I ask this:
A generation ago, if there was no demand for faster internet, we would still be using a telephone and modem to dial in to the internet, and there would be no always-on, high speed wired or wireless connections.
The supply issue is, in fact, being corrected. There are plans to change the building code in the province of Quebec, Canada to require that all new homes built include a 240-volt charging station. There are also discussions to include a charging station to new homes built in the province of Ontario, Canada. Installing a charging station at the time that a home is built will be much cheaper than adding one to an older home.
Before we go and claim that the sky will fall if we plug in more EVs, I ask this:
- Please provide the evidence that the electrical networks are indeed so highly-stressed that they cannot handle a bit more load. Let's also be specific: What if this EV charging is done at night, when capacity is the same but demand is lower, can the network handle the load?
- Please provide the evidence that electricity utility companies are not studying this possible growing demand. In my opinion, any utility that does not have this on their radar is guilty of gross negligence and deserves to have their network collapse.
A generation ago, if there was no demand for faster internet, we would still be using a telephone and modem to dial in to the internet, and there would be no always-on, high speed wired or wireless connections.
The supply issue is, in fact, being corrected. There are plans to change the building code in the province of Quebec, Canada to require that all new homes built include a 240-volt charging station. There are also discussions to include a charging station to new homes built in the province of Ontario, Canada. Installing a charging station at the time that a home is built will be much cheaper than adding one to an older home.
07-12-17, 02:09 PM
#45
Lexus Fanatic
Let's not use the excuse of the lack of EV charging infrastructure to do nothing. This is laziness.
Before we go and claim that the sky will fall if we plug in more EVs, I ask this:
A generation ago, if there was no demand for faster internet, we would still be using a telephone and modem to dial in to the internet, and there would be no always-on, high speed wired or wireless connections.
The supply issue is, in fact, being corrected. There are plans to change the building code in the province of Quebec, Canada to require that all new homes built include a 240-volt charging station. There are also discussions to include a charging station to new homes built in the province of Ontario, Canada. Installing a charging station at the time that a home is built will be much cheaper than adding one to an older home.
Before we go and claim that the sky will fall if we plug in more EVs, I ask this:
- Please provide the evidence that the electrical networks are indeed so highly-stressed that they cannot handle a bit more load. Let's also be specific: What if this EV charging is done at night, when capacity is the same but demand is lower, can the network handle the load?
- Please provide the evidence that electricity utility companies are not studying this possible growing demand. In my opinion, any utility that does not have this on their radar is guilty of gross negligence and deserves to have their network collapse.
A generation ago, if there was no demand for faster internet, we would still be using a telephone and modem to dial in to the internet, and there would be no always-on, high speed wired or wireless connections.
The supply issue is, in fact, being corrected. There are plans to change the building code in the province of Quebec, Canada to require that all new homes built include a 240-volt charging station. There are also discussions to include a charging station to new homes built in the province of Ontario, Canada. Installing a charging station at the time that a home is built will be much cheaper than adding one to an older home.
I think we're talking about apples and oranges here. I understand what you're saying, but you are referring primarily to outlets and demand (such as the 240V requirement for new homes on the building codes). That's fine and dandy....but adding demand for more electrical current (for battery-recharging) is one thing. I'm talking about supply......where is the supply all that added voltage / amperage going to come from? There are, of course, a number of possible origins (coal, oil, wind, solar power, hydroelectric-plants from dams and waterfalls, nuclear reactions, etc....)...but, regardless of what option is chosen, an adequate supply has to be available for peak-demand periods. And, if millions of new cars suddenly are added to the charging infrastructure, you can bet the monthly rent that you'll see more stress on the existing infrastructure.