MattyG

Honda HR-V has kicked butt compared to Toyota's CH-R, unless people think there's a vast conspiracy to cook numbers, lol.

Passat has the CC to the lineup to augment options. Avalon is successful but is not the king of the hill here. The aging Chrysler 300 is still a strong contender so pricing is only one aspect of the buying psyche. Impala/LaCrosse are the same platform so you can see that they still hold their own.

Do you want to load up a Fusion and make it into a luxe vehicle? Sure but it's not the norm with how car buyers purchase Fusions. As far as predictions, well we'll see won't we?

MattyG

Fusion can be loaded up to $45K. Is that Ford's flagship sedan or is it the Taurus? Passat goes all the way up to $37-ish if you want, and then it has the CC option. After that, it's onward to Audi. Camry = Jetta, just like Avalon = Passat/CC. Camry is a mainstream bread and butter sedan as is Fusion, Impala, Jetta. What options does this Avalon offer for drive trains? Fusion actually offers AWD and engine options. Even the Chrysler 300 has choices here, as does the Passat.

Avalon is bought on buyer loyalty and that's about it. Pricing only comes in when people think about making the jump over to the ES.

spwolf

Please stop. Avalon starts at $10k more compared to Passat. You cant compare its sales. Passat is same price as Camry, same type of vehicle. It sells 4x less. Jetta is Corolla competitor not Camry. Fusion is Camry competitor that is going to be discontinued due to low sales.

I mean VW sales are pretty horrible in USA, even Subaru outsells them, almost 2 to 1, so VW is doing terrible in the US.

Why would Avalon only be bought on loyalty? Becuase it doesnt have smaller engines? You are not making much sense.

spwolf

C-HR has been worldwide sucess for Toyota... it is 3rd best selling vehicle in Japan and they sold 120k in Europe alone. It is not built for the US, so its price is not really great for it selling well there, nor is its size.

HR-V is cheaper vehicle so works better for US market, it has cheaper interior, cheaper suspension.

C-HR is example that Toyota (worldwide) can build a near-premium vehicle in its class, with more expensive suspension, engines, interior and it will sell great. Previously great deal would be done to make it cheaper - such as torsion beam suspension, and cheaper interior... like US Corolla for instance.

mmarshall

Suspension (?).....OK, maybe, but I have to strongly disagree that the HR-V has a cheaper interior. The C-HR has some of the thinnest plastic parts I've seen in a modern vehicle. In fact, one of them I looked at had one of those dash-panels sprung completely out of place, blocking the engine-start button. I tried to repair it with what limited tools I had, but couldn't. In fact, IMO, the HR-V is probably the most solidly-built vehicle in its class...the upcoming Ford EcoSport is going to have its work cut out for it.

Now.....that doesn't mean that the C-HR is a piece of junk.....I'm not implying that, and I'm sure it has the usual Toyota reliability in the drivetrain. But a quality interior? Not IMO.

MattyG

Oh it's about worldwide now. Didn't realize that's where you're coming from.

As far as Jetta/Passat. What exactly then is VW's top of the line sedan? What is Toyota's? IMO Jetta/Passat straddle a line between compact to full. Just because Camry/Accord own the segment doesn't mean others are not out there. Avalon still sits in a niche area. Is Avalon a Camry lwb product? Is Passat a lwb Jetta product? Isn't the CC a Passat offshoot?

Fizzboy7

Not close to being classy at all. The "bug-eye" look was negatively lauded by the press and controversial with the public.

Fizzboy7

The CH-R has only been on sale for two months. Not sure how it can be determined to be a success or flop so quickly.

Toys4RJill

mmarshall

Well, that's where subjectivity comes into play. I thought it was gorgeous. I kept it six years, and thought it was as good-looking on the day I sold it as when I bought it. But, I decided I wanted the new IS300 from Lexus ....liked the chronograph gauges, real chrome-metal shifter-ball, straight-six engine, and bright yellow paint option. I also found the next-generation 2000 "Hot Wheels" Celica a joke.

Anyhow, the only reason this got brought up is because an earlier poster claimed that Toyota needed the Avalon to be more classy, and I simply used the 1994-1999 Celica as an example that I thought Toyota was capable of doing what I would call classy cars. If you don't agree....fine.

Aron9000

As for how to do classy, I thought the 1st gen IS300 like you had was a great looking car. Sporty, youthful, had bulges in the right places, rode low to the ground, the 17" wheels with the low profile tires and narrower fender gap really looked the business in 2000, most cars were still riding on 15" wheels with fat sidewalls. That was a classy looking car, the 2nd gen took all the nice creases out of that car and made it more rounded/bland IMO.

Somebody else said the Toyota CH-R was the 3rd best selling vehicle in Japan. That's not surprising, Japan loves weirdly styled vehicles that don't line up with American tastes. The new Pokemon Prius as I call it has been a huge hit in Japan, often in the top 3 best selling cars since it was introduced a couple years ago. In the 2000's the Nissan Cube was the #1 selling car in Japan.

I guess my point is maybe Toyota is giving its Japanese stylists a bit too much free range. Tastes are different between Japan and America, we generally shun acid-trip over styled crap like the new Prius and CH-R. Getting back to the new Avalon, I think a bit too much of Toyko has rubbed off on this car's styling, which has traditionally been bought by a very conservative, older demographic.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

this made me lol

good points.

C-HR is example that Toyota (worldwide) can build a near-premium vehicle in its class, with more expensive suspension, engines, interior and it will sell great. Previously great deal would be done to make it cheaper - such as torsion beam suspension, and cheaper interior... like US Corolla for instance.[/QUOTE]

yes, i think i see what you mean in that i think americans tend to expect compact cars to be cheap, not "near premium".

i hadn't really looked at the c-hr beyond not caring for the exterior shots i'd seen, but now i just read edmunds review. besides a pretty decent list of standard equipment across just 2 trim levels, they were pretty unimpressed, especially with the gutless engine.

https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/c-hr/2018/review/

but toyota, like all brands, like you say, will build vehicles for either specific large markets or for other big chunks of the world, it's basically impossible to please all parts of the world with any one vehicle in large volumes.

back to the new avalon, i've concluded it's actually a pretty nice car except for the front end and the odd 'ski slope' center stack but then the current avalon interior also has a bit of an unconventional dash. if the ride is great, it will probably do just fine despite the front.

Mike728

You made me look the Avalon starting price up. I would have been shocked if they actually priced it higher than the ES. Thankfully, they don't.

Avalon starts at $33,500
ES starts at $38,900

mmarshall

I had the 16" all-season tire option on my car. Didn't want the 17's. The 16s fit my driving style, ride-comfort, and winter-needs a little better. The 2Gen version lost that option.

The narrower roads, vehicle/engine-size taxes and regulations, traffic volume, and a number of other factors also work more against larger vehicles in Japan than they do here in the U.S.

You're correct on all counts....except that the Avalon crowd, like wth the Lacrosse, MKZ, Cadenza, ES, and similar sedans, is not necessarily quite as old as the common stereotype makes it out to be.

Toys4RJill

Was behind a Passat this morning. How on Earth is the Passat a competitor to an Avalon?