Next Gen Lexus ES Spy shots !
08-09-17, 07:08 AM
#76
Lexus Fanatic
There's a reason for that. Most Lexus buyers want to cruise, not bruise. Price, to some extent, may also be a factor.
As you probably know, I came very close to buying an ES myself, off the lot, before I decided on a Lacrosse.
As you probably know, I came very close to buying an ES myself, off the lot, before I decided on a Lacrosse.
Last edited by mmarshall; 08-09-17 at 07:11 AM.
08-09-17, 07:37 AM
#77
Lexus Test Driver
I just read a report that mentions the new Supra using BMW engines. No idea how valid that may be, but it says a lot about Toyota's new dynamic force engines: they're not tailored towards performance at all. Which leads back to my speculation that Toyota does indeed lack the knowledge to actually build a performance engine.
They need Yamaha or BMW to do it for them and even the old Yamaha ones currently in service are slow.
They need Yamaha or BMW to do it for them and even the old Yamaha ones currently in service are slow.
08-09-17, 07:59 AM
#78
Pole Position
I just read a report that mentions the new Supra using BMW engines. No idea how valid that may be, but it says a lot about Toyota's new dynamic force engines: they're not tailored towards performance at all. Which leads back to my speculation that Toyota does indeed lack the knowledge to actually build a performance engine.
They need Yamaha or BMW to do it for them and even the old Yamaha ones currently in service are slow.
They need Yamaha or BMW to do it for them and even the old Yamaha ones currently in service are slow.
I wouldnt consider Yamaha engines are considered slow. Just not as fast as others. Also, these current engines are built to be revved, like racing engines or motorcycle engines. So while they make not be very responsive in the low end, rev the nuts off of it like the 5L V8 and it will bring enjoyment. It seems with the new 2.5L, these philosophies changed where they prioritize low end power vs high end rev-ability.
08-09-17, 08:08 AM
#79
Lexus Test Driver
I think the new dynamic force engines are tailored towards efficiency. All of the press releases about them keeps mentioning "thermal efficiency," so take that however you want.
That's why all this speculation about 600 HP engines are BS.
That's why all this speculation about 600 HP engines are BS.
08-09-17, 10:34 AM
#80
I just read a report that mentions the new Supra using BMW engines. No idea how valid that may be, but it says a lot about Toyota's new dynamic force engines: they're not tailored towards performance at all. Which leads back to my speculation that Toyota does indeed lack the knowledge to actually build a performance engine.
They need Yamaha or BMW to do it for them and even the old Yamaha ones currently in service are slow.
They need Yamaha or BMW to do it for them and even the old Yamaha ones currently in service are slow.
08-09-17, 12:27 PM
#81
Lexus Test Driver
Well according to Wikipedia, that engine was codeveloped by Yamaha as well!
A BMW engine in the new Supra will say it all and puts all the pieces together. They just don't have the engineering power or resources OR choose not to develop a performance engine AND the dynamic force engines are ALL about thermal effectiveness.
A BMW engine in the new Supra will say it all and puts all the pieces together. They just don't have the engineering power or resources OR choose not to develop a performance engine AND the dynamic force engines are ALL about thermal effectiveness.
08-09-17, 12:46 PM
#82
Lexus Champion
An engine with this kind of thermal efficiency is awesome.
Thermal efficiency is the amount of work an engine can do based on the input (in this case, heat from burning fuel). Losing all of that heat without using it to make power is a waste.
When I was in college (mechanical engineering), the thermal efficiency of a gasoline engine was about 25%, with diesel around 40%, meaning the engine uses less than half of what it has available to it. To get gasoline engines up to 40%+ is a huge achievement.
That increased thermal efficiency can be used to make more power and/or better fuel economy.
To use the fact that an engine has increased thermal efficiency as evidence that an engine is not competitive or performance oriented makes no sense to me.
Thermal efficiency is the amount of work an engine can do based on the input (in this case, heat from burning fuel). Losing all of that heat without using it to make power is a waste.
When I was in college (mechanical engineering), the thermal efficiency of a gasoline engine was about 25%, with diesel around 40%, meaning the engine uses less than half of what it has available to it. To get gasoline engines up to 40%+ is a huge achievement.
That increased thermal efficiency can be used to make more power and/or better fuel economy.
To use the fact that an engine has increased thermal efficiency as evidence that an engine is not competitive or performance oriented makes no sense to me.
Last edited by JDR76; 08-09-17 at 01:36 PM.
08-09-17, 12:52 PM
#83
Lexus Fanatic
An engine with this kind of thermal efficiency is awesome.
Thermal efficiency is the amount of work an engine can do based on the input (in this case, heat from burning fuel). Losing all of that heat without using it to make power is a waste.
When I was in college (mechanical engineering), the thermal efficiency of a gasoline engine was about 25%, with diesel around 40%, meaning the engine uses less than half of what it has available to it. To get gasoline engines up to 40%+ is a huge achievement.
That increased thermal efficiency can be used to make more power and/or better fuel economy.
To use the fact that an engine has increased thermal efficiency as evidence that an engine is not competitive or performance oriented is nonsense.
Thermal efficiency is the amount of work an engine can do based on the input (in this case, heat from burning fuel). Losing all of that heat without using it to make power is a waste.
When I was in college (mechanical engineering), the thermal efficiency of a gasoline engine was about 25%, with diesel around 40%, meaning the engine uses less than half of what it has available to it. To get gasoline engines up to 40%+ is a huge achievement.
That increased thermal efficiency can be used to make more power and/or better fuel economy.
To use the fact that an engine has increased thermal efficiency as evidence that an engine is not competitive or performance oriented is nonsense.
All this talk by Toyota is nice....but give people what they really want....touchscreens and Apple Car Play
08-09-17, 12:53 PM
#84
Well according to Wikipedia, that engine was codeveloped by Yamaha as well!
A BMW engine in the new Supra will say it all and puts all the pieces together. They just don't have the engineering power or resources OR choose not to develop a performance engine AND the dynamic force engines are ALL about thermal effectiveness.
A BMW engine in the new Supra will say it all and puts all the pieces together. They just don't have the engineering power or resources OR choose not to develop a performance engine AND the dynamic force engines are ALL about thermal effectiveness.
08-09-17, 02:33 PM
#85
The ES is an unique model with literally no real competitor.
However the GS should be left alone despite losing sales to its own ES.
This is because neither the ES nor the GS is great development costs for Toyota Motor Corp, because both ES and GS share platforms with mass production Toyotas in the Camry/Avalon, and the overseas Toyota Crown.
Historically, the 2005-12 3GS has "L Finesse" styling that boosted sales to over 33,000 units/year in the US back in 2005.
Back then, buyers complained of a cramped interior, a small trunk and a small trunk opening.
Thus the 2012-19 4GS countered by being taller and boxier to increase sales.
However, I suspect that the 4GS lost style, especially towards the rear, and on the dashboard, and with the advent of the new 2016-23 E Class and 2017-24 5 Series, the 4GS sales has taken an absolute beating this year.
Also note how Mercedes cleverly maintain their E Class sales by doing bigger and more major facelifts at the 3.5 year mark, whereas Lexus and everyone else traditionally do tiny minor facelifts.
Styling really sells...
However the GS should be left alone despite losing sales to its own ES.
This is because neither the ES nor the GS is great development costs for Toyota Motor Corp, because both ES and GS share platforms with mass production Toyotas in the Camry/Avalon, and the overseas Toyota Crown.
Historically, the 2005-12 3GS has "L Finesse" styling that boosted sales to over 33,000 units/year in the US back in 2005.
Back then, buyers complained of a cramped interior, a small trunk and a small trunk opening.
Thus the 2012-19 4GS countered by being taller and boxier to increase sales.
However, I suspect that the 4GS lost style, especially towards the rear, and on the dashboard, and with the advent of the new 2016-23 E Class and 2017-24 5 Series, the 4GS sales has taken an absolute beating this year.
Also note how Mercedes cleverly maintain their E Class sales by doing bigger and more major facelifts at the 3.5 year mark, whereas Lexus and everyone else traditionally do tiny minor facelifts.
Styling really sells...
08-09-17, 06:19 PM
#86
Lexus Fanatic
I think price is the biggest factor, people just don't see the premium for the GS as worth it over the similar sized/equipped ES especially now that the GS has a 4cyl standard.
08-09-17, 06:50 PM
#87
Lexus Fanatic
The less-expensive ES, at least on the gas model, actually beats it with a standard V6. 
08-09-17, 06:57 PM
#88
Lexus Fanatic
I'm not sure I'd agree wth that. IMO, among FWD competitors, the ES350 competes very closely with the Buick Lacrosse and Lincoln MKZ, and somewhat less so with the less-expensive Chevy Impala, Kia Cadenza, Toyota Avalon, and the now-discontinued Hyundai Azera. I included the Impala because the 2014 redesign completely transformed it from a rental-grade special into a truly outstanding full-size sedan. There are also a number of RWD/AWD competitors to the ES, but they tend to be more expensive.
08-09-17, 07:41 PM
#89
I'm not sure I'd agree wth that. IMO, among FWD competitors, the ES350 competes very closely with the Buick Lacrosse and Lincoln MKZ, and somewhat less so with the less-expensive Chevy Impala, Kia Cadenza, Toyota Avalon, and the now-discontinued Hyundai Azera. I included the Impala because the 2014 redesign completely transformed it from a rental-grade special into a truly outstanding full-size sedan. There are also a number of RWD/AWD competitors to the ES, but they tend to be more expensive.
I was too focused on the three Germans being without a front MacPherson strut front drive based midsize luxury, I totally forgot about the locals.
08-09-17, 08:45 PM
#90
Lexus Fanatic
I kind of agree. The ES350 is in a sort of area by itself. I would like to say the Buick Lacrosse is a competitor but honestly, the LaCrosse is a real competitor to the Avalon which both share the same starting MSRP. The ES is far nicer inside that both the Avalon and Lacrosse. . The Avalon was always referred to as the Japanese Buick.
For the life of me, I still cannot believe Cadillac does not have a true ES competitor. It's almost like Lexus has been given a small segment to themselves.
Cadillac has a XT6 competitor for the RX.
For the life of me, I still cannot believe Cadillac does not have a true ES competitor. It's almost like Lexus has been given a small segment to themselves.
Cadillac has a XT6 competitor for the RX.