peteharvey

In a phrase, you're spot on.

mmarshall

There never was anything boring with past Lexus models to start with. That's where I'm with you, BippuLexus...and disagree with those who think that older-generation Lexus products were intended mainly for senior citizens. True, until the IS300 came along in 2001, they did not sell strongly to younger people, but that's partly because younger people usually did not have the kind of money that an LS or GS cost. I was in my 30s when the LS400 debuted in 1989.....and, if I had 35-40K to spend on a new car back then (I didn't) I may have very well gotten one. Same even as far back as when I was a teen in high school...I liked big, refined, luxury vehicles.

peteharvey

I guess an F Sport package is fine, afterall Mercedes offer AMG on most, if not all of their models.
However, the important point is to have a volume selling luxury model to cater for the mass public, to attract the backbone 2,000+ units a month buyers like the debut of the current model Mercedes S Class.
The low volume sports niche M Sport/AMG Sport/F Sport is just the icing on top of the cake.

We could say that we are absolutely not bothered by sales figures - no more than Roberto Duran "smiled" when he was badly punched & beaten by Thomas "Hit Man" Hearns, Sugar Ray Leonard and Marvin Haggler.
In other words, I'm just saying that people "pretend" that they are not hurt, when they really are genuinely hurt - with low sales.

The LFA and CL coupe are low volume loss making "halo" cars; however, the 5LS is not quite as halo as the two coupes, and the LS has always made some money for TMC.
5LS can only make an "Infiniti" of itself with low volumes amongst its peers.


Btw, Roberto Duran was a great fighter, and world champion in his time.
However, he came back from retirement too often, fighting well into his 40's - probably for $$$$, only to find himself older, heavier, slower, and fighting in a higher weight division with opponents progressively much younger, taller, faster & stronger than him in: Marvin Haggler [b 1954-], Sugar Ray Leonard [b 1957-] and Thomas "Hit Man" Hearns [b 1958-].
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BippuLexus

+1 Agreed. I also agree. I believe there was nothing boring with past Lexus models to start with either. Being part of a family that mainly bought Toyota/Lexus, and having owned two 2G Lexus IS - I always thought the older models were a good combination of handsome, luxurious, and sporty. I never felt it was ever over done nor I saw them as boring.

Agreed. I don't think older gen Lexus products were mainly targeted for older people. Your point about being not able to afford is spot on. How much people, in the teens or early 20s, can afford a Lexus? Especially the ES, GS, and LS models. My very first car was a Toyota with no power windows.

peteharvey

Although President Akio says "No more boring cars" - what I think he really means is no more cars with uninspired styling and uninspired dynamics.
Because having said no more boring cars, President Akio actually went further to say that he wanted cars with more inspired styling and more inspired dynamics.

I didn't think the LS400 had boring styling, nor boring dynamics.
I would have thought the LS400's throttle power oversteer was exciting!

I would have thought some of the early nose heavy FWD-based Avalons with simple lower link MacPherson strut front suspension which cannot keep the tires perpendicular to the road surface to maximize grip - had boring dynamics, combined with boring styling.

But it's tough because a number of people have said the 5LS has boring styling, or it could be interpreted that maybe the 5LS has exciting styling, but in the wrong direction compared to the achievements of the LC coupe & the much loved forthcoming 7ES.
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DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

Johnhav430

I know that the IS with an inline 6 was considered 3 series worthy. Lexus even brought the then new E90 330i to a summer 2005 event, comparing the 2005 IS to the 2006 330i side by side. I actually think that only made people realilze how much better the 330i was (it was a newer gen), but Lexus was willing to do it. BMW compared the then new 330i to the G35 and A4, not the IS. And they loved to bring FWD A4s to events to really exaggerate the A4s handling or lack thereof.

My first car didn't have power windows either, or rear doors (I made the seller throw them in, then we haggled over who would install them--I felt he's a salvage yard, he can eaasily install them, I can't). I would really hope that most people are aware that not all cars had a/c or power windows/locks

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

back to the LS...

i don't think anyone should declare it a failure based on may's sales! the car's only been out a couple of months and it's a bold direction change, will take a while for people to decide on, and with, as far as i can tell, very little marketing. that last point is, unless i'm mistaken, the most disappointing. i've found lexus marketing to have gone either elsewhere altogether or very hit and miss and inconsistent, unlike the unparalleled, stellar, and successful early launch years of lexus (still remember that guy's voice!).

the 5ls seems to exhibit a lot of tensions and trade-offs... make it sporty, but make it longer than the old reg. wheelbase ls460, make it very luxurious, but only offer it in one length. have a 23k interior package but don't offer a v8. make it long, but (i don't know if this is true but have read it here) have less backseat room than the new es.

BippuLexus

Yup. Its too early still to claim failure. We should give the LS some time to see where the direction heads.
I agree. The Lexus marketing needs to step it up. I thought their deal to put Lexus products in the Black Panther movie was a good move. They should be making more of these moves with the company and the LS to generate more appeal.

peteharvey

Here's the old 4LS which debut late 2006:
2006: 1190, 1015, 1341, 1071, 1085, 1014, 0971, 1386, 0898, 2097, 3613, 3865.
2007: 3006, 2423, 3134, 3182, 3196, 2631, 2696, 3164, 2918, 2951, 2668, 3257 = 35,226

These are the monthly stats for the current S Class in its debut year:
2013: 0938, 0923, 1216, 1103, 1190, 0841, 0577, 0450, 0387, 1914, 1907, 1857.
2014: 1281, 1789, 2299, 1909, 2173, 1780, 1920, 1855, 1909, 1914, 2863, 2832 = 24,524

Theoretically, a 5LS sales recovery is possible , however from a very low base of only 908 units in its third month, I doubt 5LS will all of a sudden make it to 2,000+ units/month like the current S Class for a total of nearly 25,000 units in the S Class' first full year.
Historically, sales of LS and S Classes have never been at a low of say 900, and then all of a sudden recovered to 2,000+ units/month.

What's worse, the next generation 2020-27 Mercedes S Class is only 2 years away to put the 5LS out of its misery - before a midlife refreshed 5.5LS can even get onto the market!
However, that does give the midlife updated 5.5LS an opportunity to peek at the next generation 2020-27 S Class, before the 5.5LS is released in 2021.



Another piece of evidence was the midsize 4GS back in 2012.
After its debut in February 2012, the 4GS consistently fell below its deliberately low set monthly target of only 2,000 units/month, while its predecessor the 3GS averaged well over 2,000 units/month for 33,457 in its first full year.
Keep in mind that the 4GS fall in sales was at a time when 5 Series maintained its 57,000+ units/year , while E Class increased its previous record of 58,000+ units/year to a new all time record of 69,000+ units/year!

3GS
2005: 0502, 1947, 3209, 3198, 3141, 3317, 3374, 3335, 2739, 2645, 2619, 3431 = 33,457
2006: 2257, 2327, 2761, 2709, 2972, 2611, 2374, 3333, 2927, 2201, 2056, 2587 = 31,115

4GS
2012: 0093, 4792, 2558, 2006, 1996, 2020, 1662, 1831, 1454, 1521, 1826, 2796 = 22,159
2013: 1099, 1108, 1882, 1236, 2015, 1728, 1722, 2234, 1231, 1293, 1590, 2604 = 19,742
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Stroock639

ok finally i get to add a new opinion here. i was at lexus getting some parts earlier today and convinced them to let me test drive an LS 500 lol... one of my initial impressions is that the gauge cluster seems unusually small, or maybe just the surrounding interior alters the perception but it definitely seems more compact compared to older models and even other toyotas. the fit, finish, and overall quality seems superb as to be expected, and every major control surface just feels very nice to use. i especially liked the volume dual **** setup, that feels very nice and luxurious to use. it feels pretty standard lexus for the most part as far as the other buttons are concerned. visibility outward especially behind i think it quite bad honestly, i was definitely happy the blind spot monitors are there. sound system is also naturally excellent but i still can't help but feel it's not noticeably better than the pioneer system in mine with a really high quality CD.

as far as driving is concerned, it feels light and nimble, "athletic" i guess one could say... extremely smooth but there's no getting away from feeling some bumps with those very skinny tires and big rims. the whole car remains extremely composed though and bumps really didn't unsettle it at all. also it's like seriously super duper quiet inside no matter what the speed was. now my main goal with this test drive was to see if i'd be able to overcome my main initial criticism with this car, namely lack of a V8. and honestly it's still my main complaint. this doesn't have that initial immediate burst of torque that the V8 has, and it just feels like it has to rev higher and hold gears longer to get to a satisfying level of acceleration. the engine is more than adequate but the slightly reduced response and no rumbling V8 sounds just don't do it for me. also imo it doesn't have that lovely linear power band of the older engine, where you're aware of power smoothly and constantly building as the rpms rise. i felt that this like many modern turbo cars will just kind of reach their peak torque and then maintain a kind of flat acceleration. i did a full S+ acceleration from like 20-65 or so and wasn't blown away or anything, but i guess that's what the LS F will be for. the car does build speed very effortlessly though, and it sounds good in S+ but still no V8 to me. certainly faster however with definitely more midrange torque.

wonderful car, seriously very nice. i'm sure the people who end up getting one will have no complaints about the engine lol... i'm happy i finally got to drive one for myself though. i'd say this certainly puts the LS back in contention with it's main rivals which at least makes me happy to see. and being forced induction will make getting extra power out of it much easier so there's always that bonus. oh and sorry to say but i still don't like the spindle grill even in person.

situman

It's strange but when I drive my family's LS460 AWD, a 2017 model, I dont sense the "immediate rush of torque" that you spoke of. Perhaps the speed is deceptive, but the response is more tepid than I expected, though it is a little better in Sport Mode. It does have gradual build up of power and speed, but certainly nothing super immediate.

Stroock639

well i guess "rush" is a relative term, also i've driven a LS 460 AWD and i think the AWD definitely makes it feel a bit less snappy. i'm pretty sure the LS 500 he pulled up for me was AWD too so maybe i should make a point to drive a RWD LS 500 as well. all i know is the older cars that were exclusively RWD will routinely chirp the tires if you punch it from low speeds. i'm not saying the LS 500 is slow or sluggish by any means but you can tell it's a smaller engine with turbos. turbos you sadly can't even see since the entire engine bay is a plastic cover... and you certainly don't hear any turbo noise.

peteharvey

I can say that my missus' IS200t has a rush of torque from the bottom end.
I can also say that my staff member's Camry V6 has more bottom end punch than my GS350.

I certainly agree with you.
These GS350, GS460 & LS460's are designed more for top end torque [hence greater maximum power output] - great for racing.
I myself wish there was a more immediate rush of torque from the bottom end - just for use around town...

SW17LS