mmarshall

In a nutshell, unless any of you have more questions or comments, I'll wrap up my own comments in the thread by saying that my opinion has not changed on one issue....IMHO, even in spite of its Buick nameplate, this is the car that Cadillac should have replaced the DeVille/DTS with, and didn't. I've never liked the XTS, and, for the most part, still don't....the CT6 is an improvement in some areas, but not in others. The Lacrosse would have made a fabulous DTS replacement, and would have required little additional work or development-money spent beyond substituting Cadillac emblems for the Buick Tri-Shields, removing the traditional Buick portholes from the fenders, adding a few things inside like a wood-option for the steering wheel (the Buick Intellink system is already much better than Cadillac's CUE). In fact, I'll await further judgement until I see the upcoming Avenir (super-luxury) version of the Lacrosse....that will probably approximate what a Cadillac version would have been like. So, IMO, for those Cadillac traditionalists who still mourn the loss of the DTS (and there are plenty of them out there...I know some of them myself).....here's your car. Just get it with the 18" wheels, and avoid the 20s

SW17LS

That's exactly the point, they don't want to serve that customer with the Cadillac brand, they want to serve them with the Buick brand.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

the dts has been gone for nearly 7 years. anyone 'still mourning' about it should probably seek therapy.

also, having driven most of the devilles and dts of that era, i don't think they were all you think they were. The ride was stiff and hard, and being fwd and very heavy didn't help either. the northstar engine was strong though, the cabin plenty roomy, and it was fairly quiet. but i bet your lacrosse is leaps and bounds better in every way.

Toys4RJill

I agree. The Deville and the DTS are long gone and mourning them is pretty silly. From the looks of it, the Buick Lacrosse is a sales dud, especially for a brand new redesigned model. I would almost argue that the Impala and the LaCrosse are not big enough to be honest. The Verano, Regal, and Lacrosse almost over lap each other from the left and the right of the Regal. The last gen Avalon was a good size for seniors and older folks coming from those DTS models. I think Buick should reconsider the sizing of the Lacrosse the next time around. Make it ever bigger

mmarshall

That's an interesting way of looking at it, I'll admit....but then the question comes up if Cadillac really benefitted from that. Their sedan market is suffering, but then, you could say that about virtually all of the large GM sedans....yep, including the Lacrosse. They are on thin ice, and might not survive after another year or so. As has been emphasized many times, the SUV craze is clearly dominating the market.

I think, though, that, in the long run, though GM took some flak for it from enthusiasts and the auto press, the decision to ax the Oldsmobile and Pontiac Divisions, rather than Buick, will show to have been correct. Oldsmobile, under John Rock's leadership, had lost many of their former customers, who had migrated to Buick after Olds dropped the big 88 and 98 models. The Aurora, which replaced those models, simply didn't appeal to them (I didn't care much for it, either), and the rest of their line-up had deteriorated into some rather unrefined, unreliable, and unimpressive vehicles....certainly not what we had seen a few decades earlier. Pontiac, except for their impressive Holden-sourced GTOs and G8s (which, ironically, didn't sell), was just as bad, if not worse than Olds...at the time, their American-designed vehicles used ultra-cheap parts, with fit/finish levels that wouldn't fly at Walmart. Their non-Holden sedans and coupes overlapped too much with Chevy's, and a lot of their former customer base, as their incomes rose, had moved on to foreign brands. Buick, in the U.S., may have had a reputation as a Geezer brand, but at least the customers were there, they were loyal, they liked what they had, and, in China, the brand was growing by leaps and bounds.....the Chinese public simply loved them. Yep, in spite of many goof and flops, I think history will show that was one decision the GM marketers got right.

mmarshall

Well, two answers to that. First, though I may be wrong, my guess is that you probably don't interact with as many different older people, each day, as I do. Being retired, I swim (indoors) and socialize/excercise and even eat lunch with a lot of older people like myself....yes, often discussing cars. The DTS, especially for those with money, was an institution...some of them either kept their old ones or moved on to other brands rather than replace them with a newer Cadillac sedan. Second, the "therapy" you speak of just might be a Lacrosse itself........though the 2017-2018 version has not sold well, many of these senior citizens I see every day own the last-generation Lacrosse. I'd say, from what I see, among their age group, it's about neck-and-neck, in the D.C. area, between the popularity of the last-generation Lacrosse and the Lexus ES350.


The main forte of the DTS was comfort. The Northstar engine, despite its long production-run, was never really perfected, and had several mechanical issues. I don't agree with your assessment of the stiff ride (at least by the standards off the period), though there were DeVille Concours and DTS Touring models that had (slightly) more aggressive tires/suspension (still not saying much, as they were a long way from being truly firm). It's true that the DTS did not have quite the Boat-Wallow ride of the Buick Roadmaster or Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham....but the Roadmaster, IMO, was so sloppy-handling that IMO it could be borderline dangerous in all but the most gentle of curves and cornering (the Fleetwood and Caprice, interestingly, were both a little stiffer than the pillow-soft Roadmaster).

Now...I will give you one concession. Though the DTS and its FWD probably had (all else equal) better winter traction than the RWD Town Car, neither one offered an AWD option for the Snow Belt. I never liked their XTS or MKS replacements, but both handled better than their predecessors, and, at least, offered the AWD option that their predecessors lacked.

Go test-drive one and you'll find out. ....but avoid the 20" wheels.

mmarshall

Ha.....like I told bit, you don't talk to the same people I do. And, no, not all of them have one foot in the grave...they are still plugging along every day.


I'm sure glad I got mine before GM dumps it, but, yes, the non-deflatable start-stop system was clearly a mistake. The comments on the Buick forum show that it is driving potential customers away. I still stand by my earlier comment, though, good sales or not, it is currently the natural DTS replacement. If people buy it, fine. If not, it might fade into history.


Well, if you are talking about a traditional American luxury car, you're probably right......but nothing on the market with an American nameplate, today (even the Continental, CT6, and Chrysler 300), even comes close. But, by today's standards, they're good-sized machines.



The Verano and Regal were almost the same size, and shared powertrains (except for the Regal's AWD option). So, naturally, the Verano, at a lower price, sold in larger numbers, though the extremely popular Encore was its ultimate demise here in the U.S. and relegated the Verano to the Chinese market. The new (and still Opel-rebadged) 2018 Regal hatchback and wagon, and the demise of the Regal sedan, are, admittedly, marketing risks.....time will tell how they do in the American market. I disagree with the Lacrosse overlapping either of them...it is a substantially larger, more comfort-oriented car, and, unlike them, is a traditional American Buick.

I know you are a Toyota fan (and I respect that)...but IMO, Toyota clearly blew the Avalon's last major re-design. The 2014 version was too stiffly-sprung, rode too harshly for a vehicle in that class, had what IMO felt like tin-can sheet metal (though the Lacrosse's sheet metal, I'll admit, isn't that much better), and some of the Avalon's interior parts and ***** were Cracker-Jack thin and light....even wobbly, in some cases. Toyota, to its credit, did address some of the issues with the mid-cycle update (I did a review of that update, and was clearly more impressed than with the 2014 version).

In China, they sell a Holden-sourced, RWD, V8-equipped Park Avenue...but the marketers have not seen fit to bring it over here. For now, the Lacrosse is the American-market sedan flagship.

Toys4RJill

That Holden Park Avenue is a beaut.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

you may be wrong, yes... can't speak for LexsCTJill, but i'm in florida, land of retirees remember. i've never met one who mopes around mourning the DTS. they've moved on, to avalons, mercedes, lexus, suvs, etc. and the "DTS" was just ONE of the former DeVille models... they had the DTS and DHS.

i drove older DeVilles (ex father-in-law) in the 90's and early 00's which i still maintain were stiff over bumps but comfy on smooth roads for sure. i don't think i drove a later one with active dampers, so maybe that was more comfortable, although the DTS was supposedly more 'sporty'.

not sure how that's a 'concession'

SW17LS

I also don't remember Devilles riding exceptionally well. Certainly not as well as Lincoln Town Cars. If you read comparison reviews they mention that too.

LexBob2

I AM old and my friends and former co-workers are old too - No Deville or DTS mourning to report. In fact no Caddy old or new discussions at all. All of my older acquaintances have moved on to other brands of cars and SUV's.

mmarshall

Well, sorry, folks, if your experiences aren't the same as mine. While I respect your experiences, I know what mine have been (being retired myself), and I'm not going to roll over and play dead just because others don't agree with me on something. I see a fair amount of DTS-mourning, though it is true that some of them have calmly moved on to other vehicles.....or simply kept their old ones.

Anyhow, it's water over the dam. Like it or not, GM, for whatever reason, did not (as of yet) do a Cadillac version of this car....the steady introduction of Cadillac SUVs, plus whatever money is going into the (eventual) CT6 and CTS replacement, has probably eaten up most or all of the development budget.

Toys4RJill

My neighbor at my Toronto place is on his second Buick. He is 82, he went from a Verano into a Buick Regal. Very nice initial quality, he went for black interior with a white exterior and it is turbo. I have never heard him talk about a DTS.

I never meant that there is DTS mourning. I meant that I believe Buick should of made the Lacrosse bigger. The Lacrosse is not selling, and neither is the Impala. So GM might as well give customers something they cannot get anywhere else. A really, really, big Florida Turnpike type of car.

Funny enough, I just looked up the Buick Lucerne, The dimensions of the Lucerne are identical to that of the Cadillac DTS aside for 4 inches in length. The Buick is actually wider, and taller. Same wheelbase.

mmarshall

I'm no spring chicken, Jill, but I've got quite some time before I reach that age. Anyhow, congratulations to your neighbor. Odd, though, that he would have chosen the Verano turbo model (I assume with the automatic, not the relatively short-lived 6MT option)...the turbo also had slightly stiffer underpinnings.

Just out of curiosity, what did he think of his Verano? As you know, I was quite pleased with mine, though Buick could have made the tires and suspension a little more compliant on rough surfaces, at least in cold weather when they tend to be stiff....and the 6-speed transmission had a few hiccups here and there on braking and low-speed acceleration.


Interestingly, my experience has been more or less the same. Cadillac people tend to be mainly interested in Cadillacs, and not in Buicks. Buick folks, vice-versa...they are usually not interested in Caddys. That's because Cadillac folks usually think they are getting the cream of the crop....I don't happen to agree with them, not because I worship the Tri-Shield emblem, but because I sample and test-drive a lot of new vehicles.



That car, for the most part, by today's standards, is the Mercedes S550....but it costs 100K. Also, today's dense traffic, tight parking spaces, and limited maneuvering room, particularly in urban areas, pretty much rules out steamships the size of the luxury cars that were around when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s.

They were both done on the same platform. But, yes, they differed in trim and overhang, accounting for minor differences in dimensions.

SW17LS

If you refer to the Buick logo routinely as the "tri-shield" I would say you worship the brand lol.

Not a lot of casual BMW owners refer to the logo as the "roundel".