Lexus LS500/LS500h
#586
Lexus Champion
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I doubt that it's a 4.6 second car, but why not wait until there is more than one test out there to write off its performance? This may have been a pre-production model and who knows what it went through before Motor Trend got their hands on it. I'd like to see more data points before coming to any conclusions.
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#587
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Sure, even I don't just go around 0 to 60 testing my IS - that doesn't sound like it'd be good for the car anyway. I'm just saying, does it not border on false advertising when they say it can do a 4.7-second 0 to 60, but testing can't reproduce such a time? There's no need to deflect that by saying "no one will ever actually do it".
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#588
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Many different factors (even on the same car) can affect 0-60 times, such as tires, road-surface/conditions, slope, temperature, humidity, air pressure, altitude (N/A engines lose power with height...less so with turbos), tire PSIs, vehicle weight/load, center of gravity, engine-condition, fuel-grade, driver-skill...the list is almost endless.
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#589
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It's more of, if they say it can do a 4.7-second sprint to sixty, but it can't regardless of 5 ft. rollout, weather, tires, fuel, etc., then what else can't it do as advertised? (I'd give them a pass if it was a smaller gap, like .2 to .3 seconds, as you really could chalk that up to the above factors)
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#590
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Interesting how the CarWow video said that he liked the styling [though most people don't], the battery diminishes the trunk space, the LS500 not that quick, but has good mileage, doesn't handle as well as the 7 Series diesel due to the hybrid's extra weight, and the 5LS air suspension doesn't ride as smoothly as the S Class & A8 either [maybe Pres Akio once again designing the car for his own sporty tastes rather than the full size luxury market], however the 5LS has a lot of equipment and features, and is very well built.
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#591
Lexus Fanatic
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I just watched the CarWow video, I really think the ride issues people are having come from those RF 20s. If you had the 19s and regular tires I bet the ride would improve a lot.
I like that interior/exterior combo of the car, and the looks are growing on me more. Oddly enough the park I care for the least is the back...
I like that interior/exterior combo of the car, and the looks are growing on me more. Oddly enough the park I care for the least is the back...
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#592
Lexus Champion
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It's true that 0-60 doesn't equal real world driving but this metric has been around the car industry for a long, long time. Who knows where it came from but it's been there in car magazines and car manufacturer claims seemingly forever. So to dismiss it because we're talking about the LS is going against manufacturer bragging in advertising as well as car magazines.
The car magazines historically had an incestuous relationship with the manufacturers and that's why you have to look at them with a bag of salt on hand when you read what they're saying. But they do fulfill an important function: that's to test manufacturer claims on a safe test track with proper testing equipment. If they didn't do that, we would have collectively abandoned them a long time ago and just read manufacturer advertising or some guy with a Youtube channel (yes I know that's what people are doing as well).
0-60 gives a metric about what the vehicle might do in other real world situations. A slow car in a 0-60 test won't be as slow in city traffic but it may be hopelessly under powered when it comes to highway/freeway merging or passing.
Lexus seems to be taking a very conservative approach with this car and its tuning. So far we see an AWD car running fives and mid-thirteens with a claimed 415 hp/442 lb/feet on a roughly 4700 lb car. Look at similar cars priced anywhere from $75K for a Genesis G90 V6tt that can match this car's numbers, and go right up to the Germans at $85-95K with V6tt and similar curb weights. Now they are running far less horsepower and torque in the low to mid 300's. How is a 415 hp car matching cars with less horsepower and often with far fewer transmission gears running the same numbers as them?
So who's telling the truth. Is Lexus overstating hp numbers or are the Germans and Genesis lying and understating hp numbers?
The car magazines historically had an incestuous relationship with the manufacturers and that's why you have to look at them with a bag of salt on hand when you read what they're saying. But they do fulfill an important function: that's to test manufacturer claims on a safe test track with proper testing equipment. If they didn't do that, we would have collectively abandoned them a long time ago and just read manufacturer advertising or some guy with a Youtube channel (yes I know that's what people are doing as well).
0-60 gives a metric about what the vehicle might do in other real world situations. A slow car in a 0-60 test won't be as slow in city traffic but it may be hopelessly under powered when it comes to highway/freeway merging or passing.
Lexus seems to be taking a very conservative approach with this car and its tuning. So far we see an AWD car running fives and mid-thirteens with a claimed 415 hp/442 lb/feet on a roughly 4700 lb car. Look at similar cars priced anywhere from $75K for a Genesis G90 V6tt that can match this car's numbers, and go right up to the Germans at $85-95K with V6tt and similar curb weights. Now they are running far less horsepower and torque in the low to mid 300's. How is a 415 hp car matching cars with less horsepower and often with far fewer transmission gears running the same numbers as them?
So who's telling the truth. Is Lexus overstating hp numbers or are the Germans and Genesis lying and understating hp numbers?
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#593
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Yeah, Toyota/Lexus tend to greatly overstate their performance. I really have no idea why. It's way better to understate then overstate to the extent that they do.
And I honestly believe Toyota and Lexus just don't know how to make decent engines anymore. Well, engines from a performance perspective. There are reports of a 4.0 L V8TT with 600+ HP. Well, assuming that's even true, heck, that will be slow too. And the reason why I say that is forget real performance (which is bad enough), but even the engine HP and Torque numbers are misleading. Every Toyota or Lexus engine that is either geared towards performance or just has big HP numbers performs poorly. Those numbers do not translate to anything. They all greatly under perform for whatever reason.
I said this new LS will be slow and everyone laughed....
Those numbers, for a car with that much reported HP and Torque, is bad in my opinion. Especially when the competition in 320 HP 6 Cylinder engines can outpace that. That's just insane and speaks volumes about Toyota's engine development capability or lack thereof. 415 HP and 440 lb-ft of torque. Really?
And I honestly believe Toyota and Lexus just don't know how to make decent engines anymore. Well, engines from a performance perspective. There are reports of a 4.0 L V8TT with 600+ HP. Well, assuming that's even true, heck, that will be slow too. And the reason why I say that is forget real performance (which is bad enough), but even the engine HP and Torque numbers are misleading. Every Toyota or Lexus engine that is either geared towards performance or just has big HP numbers performs poorly. Those numbers do not translate to anything. They all greatly under perform for whatever reason.
I said this new LS will be slow and everyone laughed....
Those numbers, for a car with that much reported HP and Torque, is bad in my opinion. Especially when the competition in 320 HP 6 Cylinder engines can outpace that. That's just insane and speaks volumes about Toyota's engine development capability or lack thereof. 415 HP and 440 lb-ft of torque. Really?
Last edited by webra; 12-15-17 at 08:02 PM. Reason: grammar
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#594
Lexus Champion
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I don't think Toyota will let someone else put their own engine in the car unless they are involved with it or they are in a partnership. It's not because they lack confidence in their engines like you're trying to allude to.
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#595
Pole Position
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Reviews of reviews are always fun but after all they are just another opinion no different or more important than yours.
If they have to go such a long distance to claim there is poor legroom behind drivers seat in a freakin' 200+ inch limo then that's straight off stupidity. Then we have so called euro reviews or should I say UK reviews as only those are available in English, yes they kicked the crap out of 500h. TopGear even claims they got the same or better gas mileage on S500 V8 model than on 500h, yeah right. Somehow they managed to make 500h do 23mpg and yet they claimed they drove it "ordinary". Anyway if you take any UK reviews of Lexus LS in the last 20 years you can read the same thing all over again. You can tell reviewers have no emotional attachment for the brand like they do with others, just like Germans don't have emotional attachment to Jaguar so they trash it all the time. Basically Lexus reviews are always on rational and logical side while others get that extra in emotional connection.
Lexus LS is pretty much on par in flagship game.
I love the styling and I think together with Jaguar XJ it's the best looking big driver's limo there is. BMW and Audi are too invisible, unless they ride on 21" wheels and MB is a chauffeur limo especially if you get it in black. And then there is a S class on the budge like the most builds in Europe, short wheelbase with diesel V6 and 18" rims. It looks craptastic inside out. Sure it does close to 40mpg but base thank is only 16 gallons so in order to get the big one with 23 gallons you have to pay like 5 grand and the list of upgrades goes on and on. Just then you realize how much more LS offers for the same price, it's in a different league compared to common S-class Euro build.
If they have to go such a long distance to claim there is poor legroom behind drivers seat in a freakin' 200+ inch limo then that's straight off stupidity. Then we have so called euro reviews or should I say UK reviews as only those are available in English, yes they kicked the crap out of 500h. TopGear even claims they got the same or better gas mileage on S500 V8 model than on 500h, yeah right. Somehow they managed to make 500h do 23mpg and yet they claimed they drove it "ordinary". Anyway if you take any UK reviews of Lexus LS in the last 20 years you can read the same thing all over again. You can tell reviewers have no emotional attachment for the brand like they do with others, just like Germans don't have emotional attachment to Jaguar so they trash it all the time. Basically Lexus reviews are always on rational and logical side while others get that extra in emotional connection.
Lexus LS is pretty much on par in flagship game.
I love the styling and I think together with Jaguar XJ it's the best looking big driver's limo there is. BMW and Audi are too invisible, unless they ride on 21" wheels and MB is a chauffeur limo especially if you get it in black. And then there is a S class on the budge like the most builds in Europe, short wheelbase with diesel V6 and 18" rims. It looks craptastic inside out. Sure it does close to 40mpg but base thank is only 16 gallons so in order to get the big one with 23 gallons you have to pay like 5 grand and the list of upgrades goes on and on. Just then you realize how much more LS offers for the same price, it's in a different league compared to common S-class Euro build.
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#596
Lexus Champion
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I think the LS looks like nothing else on the road. It may have some swoopiness of the Mazda 6 or Infiniti M, but they don't look as luxurious or have the presence of this car. The BMW and Mercedes look just or too much like their lesser siblings. Of course they're going to trash Lexus because that's the thing to do. But the sales will tell the real story. It's already sold out for months in Japan. That goes to show you something.
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#597
Pole Position
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It's true that 0-60 doesn't equal real world driving but this metric has been around the car industry for a long, long time. Who knows where it came from but it's been there in car magazines and car manufacturer claims seemingly forever. So to dismiss it because we're talking about the LS is going against manufacturer bragging in advertising as well as car magazines.
The car magazines historically had an incestuous relationship with the manufacturers and that's why you have to look at them with a bag of salt on hand when you read what they're saying. But they do fulfill an important function: that's to test manufacturer claims on a safe test track with proper testing equipment. If they didn't do that, we would have collectively abandoned them a long time ago and just read manufacturer advertising or some guy with a Youtube channel (yes I know that's what people are doing as well).
0-60 gives a metric about what the vehicle might do in other real world situations. A slow car in a 0-60 test won't be as slow in city traffic but it may be hopelessly under powered when it comes to highway/freeway merging or passing.
Lexus seems to be taking a very conservative approach with this car and its tuning. So far we see an AWD car running fives and mid-thirteens with a claimed 415 hp/442 lb/feet on a roughly 4700 lb car. Look at similar cars priced anywhere from $75K for a Genesis G90 V6tt that can match this car's numbers, and go right up to the Germans at $85-95K with V6tt and similar curb weights. Now they are running far less horsepower and torque in the low to mid 300's. How is a 415 hp car matching cars with less horsepower and often with far fewer transmission gears running the same numbers as them?
So who's telling the truth. Is Lexus overstating hp numbers or are the Germans and Genesis lying and understating hp numbers?
The car magazines historically had an incestuous relationship with the manufacturers and that's why you have to look at them with a bag of salt on hand when you read what they're saying. But they do fulfill an important function: that's to test manufacturer claims on a safe test track with proper testing equipment. If they didn't do that, we would have collectively abandoned them a long time ago and just read manufacturer advertising or some guy with a Youtube channel (yes I know that's what people are doing as well).
0-60 gives a metric about what the vehicle might do in other real world situations. A slow car in a 0-60 test won't be as slow in city traffic but it may be hopelessly under powered when it comes to highway/freeway merging or passing.
Lexus seems to be taking a very conservative approach with this car and its tuning. So far we see an AWD car running fives and mid-thirteens with a claimed 415 hp/442 lb/feet on a roughly 4700 lb car. Look at similar cars priced anywhere from $75K for a Genesis G90 V6tt that can match this car's numbers, and go right up to the Germans at $85-95K with V6tt and similar curb weights. Now they are running far less horsepower and torque in the low to mid 300's. How is a 415 hp car matching cars with less horsepower and often with far fewer transmission gears running the same numbers as them?
So who's telling the truth. Is Lexus overstating hp numbers or are the Germans and Genesis lying and understating hp numbers?
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#598
Lexus Champion
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MT comparison road test. BMW 740e xDrive iPerformance 2.0t electric, Lexus LS 500 AWD, Genesis G90 AWD 3.3tt and rounding out the American side, the Lincoln Continental AWD Black Label 3.0tt. I won't spoil the ending so you can read what the outcome was, and you'll be surprised. Here's the snippet on what they thought overall of the LS ride/drive experience.
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/genes...ontinental-30/
Driven back to back with the BMW, Genesis, and Lincoln, the Lexus feels an order of magnitude sportier than the rest of the pack. The new V-6 maintains the Lexus tradition of buttery-smooth revs, with plenty of low-end torque, and the automatic happily shunts through its 10 cogs in the background. However, if you ask for moderate or more acceleration from the LS 500, the V-6 struggles to move the 5,103-pound sedan, and the transmission’s shifts get harsh.The LS 500’s steering is much more new-gen and away from the numb appliances of yore. Sporty, direct, and with a stiffness that will be unfamiliar to the Lexus legions, the LS 500 is a good set of tires away from being a true canyon carver. Our test car’s air suspension sorted out big bumps but struggled with small, high-frequency bumps such as the Botts’ dots that line California lanes. “We’re on pretty new pavement here, and I’m still getting lots of small vibrations from all the little bumps in the road you can’t see from the driver’s seat,” Evans said.
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