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And, just a tip......you can't always judge a vehicle by its sales-numbers. Case in point.....the Mazda6 is almost universally loved by the auto press, yet its sales continually trail those of the Accord and Camry by a steep margin.
I must disagree. A car is built to be sold to a specific audience and if it does not sell -- regardless of how "good" the armchair critics (the autopress) say it is -- it is a failure. It is, after all, the buying public that buys these cars, not the autopress. If no one is buying it, there must be something "wrong".
Just look at it from another perspective: The Camry is consistently criticized by the armchair critics as nothing better than a mediocre appliance, yet it is a consistent best-seller. If so many people are buying it, there must be something good about it.
I must disagree. A car is built to be sold to a specific audience and if it does not sell -- regardless of how "good" the armchair critics (the autopress) say it is -- it is a failure. It is, after all, the buying public that buys these cars, not the autopress. If no one is buying it, there must be something "wrong".
I'm not disagreeing with you from a business standpoint....yes, in the end, a vehicle either makes money for the manufacturer or it doesn't. But, from a "specific audience" standpoint, the Mazda6 does sell...specifically to those who like BMW-esque road manners in a FWD, mid-size family sedan.
Just look at it from another perspective: The Camry is consistently criticized by the armchair critics as nothing better than a mediocre appliance, yet it is a consistent best-seller. If so many people are buying it, there must be something good about it.
As I see it, like with the Accord, much of the Camry's sales numbers come from repeat-buyers who simply buy the nameplate, based on its former stellar reputation of years ago. That's not to say that the Camry is a bad car (it certainly is not)...but, like it or not, several other competitors have caught up, whether it is from Ford, GM, or Korea. Public views, however, are very slow to change...which explains why the residual values of Hyundais and Kias still isn't what it really deserves to be. They build fully-competitive vehicles now, but some people still refuse to even go look at them.
I must disagree. A car is built to be sold to a specific audience and if it does not sell -- regardless of how "good" the armchair critics (the autopress) say it is -- it is a failure. It is, after all, the buying public that buys these cars, not the autopress. If no one is buying it, there must be something "wrong".
Just look at it from another perspective: The Camry is consistently criticized by the armchair critics as nothing better than a mediocre appliance, yet it is a consistent best-seller. If so many people are buying it, there must be something good about it.
100% agree. The buying public is the deciding factor. How many units sold and how much the buying public is willing to spend on a specific car is evidence that is not possible to argue against. Hyundai sales are down 13% while Toyota sales are up 3%. Not sure what Mazda is doing. GM is offering big rebates. You can't argue with these numbers and what the buyers want.
I'd be willing to bet a LS 500 with optional Air Suspension & standard 19 inch wheels (or a 19 inch wheel/non run flat tire combo) will solve a majority or all of the ride quality issues mentioned in most test evaluations.
Keep in mind that various auto publications & You Tube reviewers tested LS 500's with optional 20 inch wheels (standard on F Sport) which is a first for any LS (20 inch non run flat tires would also improve ride quality immensely), so the ride may be a tad bit stiffer than the standard 19's or previous 2013 -2017 LS 460 models (particularly those LS 460's with standard 18 inch wheels & tires). However, I do wonder about the difference in ride/handling characteristics with the standard coil suspension & F Sport tuned versions.
Tesla S is a niche, and I don't consider them luxury whatsoever. It's a premium car but that's about it. If you don't believe me, go sit inside one and touch the materials.
all high end vehicles are niche although i'll grant you the tesla s is anything but traditional. as others have pointed out they're widely seen in major city wealth centers like LA and Toronto in so if you think it hasn't stolen some mb s, lexus ls or other high end sedan sales then well, we'll just disagree. Luxury isn't always about bling, it's often more about exclusivity. And luxury sedans usually have 'effortless' power, something the tesla definitely has. the tesla s and mb s have a 'wow' factor, a presence, that others short of a bentley or something can't match.
Back to the new LS, it's gone a new direction of curves and sportiness with a gorgeous blingy interior. Whether the formula will work remains to be seen. I think even things like the lack of apple carplay and android auto could be a problem. I sure won't buy my next vehicle without it.
the tesla s and mb s have a 'wow' factor, a presence, that others short of a bentley or something can't match.
S-Class for sure but.....when it comes to Tesla
They sell, yes, but I just can't agree with this. A Tesla isn't even a good looking car to my eyes. It's very plain and generic looking. I don't think it has much presence at all, if any. It's not an ugly car but I personally don't see how it would ever turn any heads.
They sell, yes, but I just can't agree with this. A Tesla isn't even a good looking car to my eyes. It's very plain and generic looking. I don't think it has much presence at all, if any. It's not an ugly car but I personally don't see how it would ever turn any heads.
Presently the Tesla Model S sells, only because there is essentially NO direct competition.
However, in 5 to 10 years time, with plenty of competition around, for better technology at a lower price, I'm not sure if the current Model S, or the next generation Model S will sell so easily.
Good job to debut in 2007 with a class leading 35,000 units in the USA.
Also good job to have style that a Genesis G90 cannot match.
I'm not sure 5LS will do so well as previous generations of LS's.
Not sure if it will even do as well as the current Mercedes S Class which debut recently in 2014 with 25,000+ units.
LS styling at its lowest over the past 29 years.
Styling that Genesis G90 can at least come close to matching.
Combine this styling with front mid-engine & sporty dynamics at the expense of interior space and ride & refinement, especially in this class of luxury full size sedans.
Rather than designing cars to suit his own tastes, President Akio must learn to design cars to suit the market, in this case - the full size luxury market.
He must also learn the old adage that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Historically, all four past generation Lexus LS debut with Mercedes S Class-thumping and class leading sales.
This time around, because the 3 year delay in 5LS model release now means that the S Class is at midlife 4 years old, the all new 5LS actually has its best chance to best the S Class sales, yet ironically 5LS debut may not outsell recent S Class debut figures for the very first time in history....
Personally I think the Tesla Model s is one of the best looking cars on the road. I’ve heard that sentiment shared many times over too.
As for the LS, no it’s not going to debut with 25k sales. Lexus themselves have said that they want to sell 1000 units per month.
From what I am seeing and reading I don't even think that is going to happen consistently especially after the first few months unless they offer some great deals/discounts.
I will be shocked if they sell 1,000 units for more than a few months.
The issue has been pricing at the top end for cars like GSF, RCF, GSh, LSh, new LC.
They are priced way too high and the leases are horrible and they don't offer the performance of their direct competition.
I'm sure there were many buyers including myself that walked in to Lex dealers and were not able to get decent deals when these cars launched.
RX and ES do well because they are cheap to buy, lease and insure compared to the Germans.
The LS NEEDS to have aggressive lease deals from beginning to generate momentum and not lose the customers that are interested at the start.
BTW i have seen many LX570s lately - love the new styling on these with the optional wheels. Lexus did a great job on it and the giant grille actually works on it.
Still have yet to see the LC500 on the road and im in NYC.
all high end vehicles are niche although i'll grant you the tesla s is anything but traditional. as others have pointed out they're widely seen in major city wealth centers like LA and Toronto in so if you think it hasn't stolen some mb s, lexus ls or other high end sedan sales then well, we'll just disagree. Luxury isn't always about bling, it's often more about exclusivity. And luxury sedans usually have 'effortless' power, something the tesla definitely has. the tesla s and mb s have a 'wow' factor, a presence, that others short of a bentley or something can't match.
Back to the new LS, it's gone a new direction of curves and sportiness with a gorgeous blingy interior. Whether the formula will work remains to be seen. I think even things like the lack of apple carplay and android auto could be a problem. I sure won't buy my next vehicle without it.
I never said that. You're putting words in my mouth. YOU were the one that brought up Tesla. My comment several pages ago to marshall were about the G90 and LS. Tesla is your tangent.
I think Lexus should have just forged another direction with the LS 500. This sector is getting crowded, with extremely tough competition, and it will be hard to compete without something compelling and I'm not sure if the LS 500 is compelling enough to stand out.
The "luxury" flagship is kind of splitting into two camps:
1. High price, prestige, technology and performance OR
2. Lower price, value and maybe higher reliability
I'm not sure where the LS 500 is trying to fit in? They needed to go all out on one or the other in my opinion.
However...
Lexus should have just created a class-leading, luxury version of the Panamera as their flagship. It would have offered a true alternative to the competition, forging a different path. Imagine a 206 inch Panamera, much longer than what Porsche makes? Imagine a Panamera that drives around like a Lexus? Imagine a Panamera that doesn't cost a grand for your first service? Imagine a Panamera that is relatively reliable?
That's a compelling alternative the LS 500 could have been to the same old flagships.
The Panamera Executive is 204.7 inches long & is meant to be chauffeur driven, it is available with all the engine choices of the SWB models, and the luxury features available is very comprehensive. Porsche’s are reliable and I would pick any version of the Panamera over any comparable version of even the S class, never mind a Lexus LS.
I think Lexus should have just forged another direction with the LS 500. This sector is getting crowded, with extremely tough competition, and it will be hard to compete without something compelling and I'm not sure if the LS 500 is compelling enough to stand out.
The "luxury" flagship is kind of splitting into two camps:
1. High price, prestige, technology and performance OR
2. Lower price, value and maybe higher reliability
I'm not sure where the LS 500 is trying to fit in? They needed to go all out on one or the other in my opinion.
However...
Lexus should have just created a class-leading, luxury version of the Panamera as their flagship. It would have offered a true alternative to the competition, forging a different path. Imagine a 206 inch Panamera, much longer than what Porsche makes? Imagine a Panamera that drives around like a Lexus? Imagine a Panamera that doesn't cost a grand for your first service? Imagine a Panamera that is relatively reliable?
That's a compelling alternative the LS 500 could have been to the same old flagships.
In some respects, the LS 500 could be considered as a Japanese Panamera, particularly with it's sleek all new radically designed exterior. However, the missing ingredient is a optional/standard V8 engine which is why Lexus should have offered both the TT V6 & V8 (from the LC500) as the V8 would have allowed Lexus to move the LS slightly upmarket along with possibly adding some different features, trim levels or options unique to the V8 model.
12-23-17, 06:32 PM
