Lexus LS500/LS500h
#721
Lexus Fanatic
Once you get past 50 or 60K, there is no value when cross shopping. An LX at 90K is not a value in a way. A Range Rover at 110K is not either, nor is a G wagon V12 at $220K. It depends on what you want at that point. Just my thoughts. It is a Price you pay to get into such a brand.
#722
Lexus Champion
in japan, the LS has no domestic competition and japanese consumers are very domestic brand loyal, so it's hard to see how that info will in any way translate to the u.s. i've no doubt though that the LS should get off to a good start in the u.s. due to pent up demand.
Last edited by bitkahuna; 12-26-17 at 11:54 AM.
#723
Lexus Test Driver
I'm not trying to correlate the two, but just by demand alone in Japan where the LS is not as much as a seller than the US, it's very good. Over 9000 orders before its release is more than twice as much as the current LS will likely sell over here. It may not be as big of a jump in the states, but I don't know why anyone would think the car won't sell.
That's because the LS is MUCH cheaper than the imports and the competition is much smaller. Japan govt protects the JDM auto industry. Im sure a lot of that is orders by company executives to get chauffeured around.
Plus the same was said about LC500 that the demand was 2-3yrs....they are collecting dust at my local dealer.
Plus the same was said about LC500 that the demand was 2-3yrs....they are collecting dust at my local dealer.
#724
Lexus Test Driver
Once you get past 50 or 60K, there is no value when cross shopping. An LX at 90K is not a value in a way. A Range Rover at 110K is not either, nor is a G wagon V12 at $220K. It depends on what you want at that point. Just my thoughts. It is a Price you pay to get into such a brand.
LOL you must not interact with wealthy people. The more money some of these ppl have the cheaper they get.Just because u can afford to buy $250k Bentley GT all day doesn't mean you dont settle for $150k Sclass coupe bec of its Value.
#725
Lexus Fanatic
Pardon me....lol
My argument is that there is that once you pass certain threshold of price, these cars are no longer sold based on price. Its now based on the prestige of what the brand means or how much you are willing to pay for that badge. So perhaps the value of brand is what I might say, but not the car individual value, When you are shopping for a Corolla, Camry, Accord or Sonata, its all price competitive first, people at that point are definitely looking for value.
I don't think you can ever say luxury cars or goods can ever be considered a value.
I don't think you can ever say luxury cars or goods can ever be considered a value.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 12-26-17 at 06:18 AM.
#726
Lexus Fanatic
No, not if you compare them to a 15K econobox, but there is such a thing as value in a large luxury vehicle compared to its competitors. If you have not already checked out a Genesis G90, by all means, do so, then compare its 68-69K base price with the cars it competes against (and, actually betters, in some ways)...the LS500, A8, S550, and 7-series. Yes, the LS will probably be the most reliable, the A8 will have the best fit/finish and AWD system, the S550 will have the most safety equipment, and the 7-series will probably be the best drivers' car. But, as a total well-rounded package, it G90 is hard to beat for the price....and not to mention the best warranty.
#727
Lexus Test Driver
There really is no difference in shopping between a Corolla and Civic compared to Sclass and 7series.
Things like features, design, price, value all come into play.
Things like features, design, price, value all come into play.
LS was the best at this for many years and back in 2000-2005, you can claim not only was the LS430 a much better value than the Sclass but it was also the better luxury car even if the price was the same.
And ofcourse there is Value in Luxury car segment. Just like in any profucts that you buy.
Most buyers in the large sedan luxury segment want an Sclass but if there is an alternative that gives you almost everything for 65-70% of price (lease payment) - its very hard to say no. Now that the Sclass offers cheaper V6 option that maybe even more difficult.
And ofcourse there is Value in Luxury car segment. Just like in any profucts that you buy.
Most buyers in the large sedan luxury segment want an Sclass but if there is an alternative that gives you almost everything for 65-70% of price (lease payment) - its very hard to say no. Now that the Sclass offers cheaper V6 option that maybe even more difficult.
Last edited by RNM GS3; 12-26-17 at 06:55 AM.
#728
Lexus Fanatic
See, this is where your argument falls apart. Not everyone wants an S-class. And the fact is, you have no idea what people want. People want what they want and it all differs.
#729
Lexus Fanatic
Once you get past 50 or 60K, there is no value when cross shopping. An LX at 90K is not a value in a way. A Range Rover at 110K is not either, nor is a G wagon V12 at $220K. It depends on what you want at that point. Just my thoughts. It is a Price you pay to get into such a brand.
I completely disagree. Value is relative, and it depends on the price threshold of the particular consumer. Not to sound boastful, but $90,000 for a car for me is not a tremendous sum, and there are a whole lot more people with way more money than me out there. When looking at a fully loaded LS at $90k vs a similar S class at $120k, yeah, the LS is a value, even though by your definition it’s “expensive”
As I said before, I consider the G90 at $70k, actually “cheap”.
I can show you $1.5M houses all day I consider a good value. It’s all relative.
And yes, people absolutely buy cars this expensive based on value and price. I’ve had 3 LSs, and there are certainly cars I’d rather have if somebody was giving me a car. But, I pay for my cars and the LS was a choice made with value in mind. True, "not everybody wants an S Class", but that doesn't mean that value isn't a consideration in the mind of luxury car buyers.
As I said before, I consider the G90 at $70k, actually “cheap”.
I can show you $1.5M houses all day I consider a good value. It’s all relative.
And yes, people absolutely buy cars this expensive based on value and price. I’ve had 3 LSs, and there are certainly cars I’d rather have if somebody was giving me a car. But, I pay for my cars and the LS was a choice made with value in mind. True, "not everybody wants an S Class", but that doesn't mean that value isn't a consideration in the mind of luxury car buyers.
Last edited by SW17LS; 12-26-17 at 07:28 AM.
#730
Lead Lap
Who buys a luxury car for its value proposition? If I wanted value, I would buy a Corolla or Camry, or even an Avalon, not a Lexus.
Lexus is now almost 30-years old. Lexus is NOT Genesis. Genesis is the young wannabe, trying to prove that it can fight it out with the big (German and Japanese) boys and girls; Lexus is no longer the wannabe. Genesis is now following in Lexus' footsteps (just as Hyundai was once following in Toyota's footsteps). Lexus is now a true, mature, luxury brand and we should treat it as such.
Lexus is now almost 30-years old. Lexus is NOT Genesis. Genesis is the young wannabe, trying to prove that it can fight it out with the big (German and Japanese) boys and girls; Lexus is no longer the wannabe. Genesis is now following in Lexus' footsteps (just as Hyundai was once following in Toyota's footsteps). Lexus is now a true, mature, luxury brand and we should treat it as such.
My tried and true example which is getting old but still holds true is the current gen GS. That thing was won all the top awards, and bested the best in class 5 series...Sadly it sold like a turd, UNTIL Lexus overfilled the trunk with that movin money. VALUE in getting the best mid size rwd performance saloon for less then everyone else.
The LS, from a paper comparo is the exact same way, matches and/bests the stalwarts of the segment, but without a good value proposition its gonna suffer in sales.
#731
Lead Lap
Not everyone wants an s class is exactly why the other competitors exist. But with the sales of the S class ahead of everyone else, I`d reckon to assume, alot of people want that car tho
#732
Pole Position
Once you get past 50 or 60K, there is no value when cross shopping. An LX at 90K is not a value in a way. A Range Rover at 110K is not either, nor is a G wagon V12 at $220K. It depends on what you want at that point. Just my thoughts. It is a Price you pay to get into such a brand.
To me, value exists at every price point of every category for absolutely everything you can buy. Houses can be astronomically priced but still offer great "value" (good school district, low price relative to others in neighborhood, needs no cosmetic work, offers likelihood of appreciation). I'm in sales and have sold pieces of capital equipment that cost 5x the amount of my competitor. People bought like crazy because the value proposition was valid and it was a better "investment" (even though it still depreciated over time) for them.
I understand this is just your opinion (although it wasn't really stated like an opinion), but just because you don't see the value in something above a certain price point doesn't mean it doesn't exist to others. I bet if you asked someone driving a $250k Rolls Royce how they justified the purchase you'd get some insight into the ways other people think and make decisions. You may still disagree, but I find if I listen close enough I always learn something.
#734
Lexus Fanatic
There really is no difference in shopping between a Corolla and Civic compared to Sclass and 7series.
Things like features, design, price, value all come into play.
Things like features, design, price, value all come into play.
LS was the best at this for many years and back in 2000-2005, you can claim not only was the LS430 a much better value than the Sclass but it was also the better luxury car even if the price was the same.
And ofcourse there is Value in Luxury car segment. Just like in any profucts that you buy.
Most buyers in the large sedan luxury segment want an Sclass but if there is an alternative that gives you almost everything for 65-70% of price (lease payment) - its very hard to say no. Now that the Sclass offers cheaper V6 option that maybe even more difficult.
And ofcourse there is Value in Luxury car segment. Just like in any profucts that you buy.
Most buyers in the large sedan luxury segment want an Sclass but if there is an alternative that gives you almost everything for 65-70% of price (lease payment) - its very hard to say no. Now that the Sclass offers cheaper V6 option that maybe even more difficult.
The LS430 at the time was much more reliable, better built, interior quality was better, less complicated, easier to live with and maintain as the S class, rode as smoothly but it did not handle well at all.
The S class still seemed like a car a notch above the LS430, not a big notch but still a nicer more upscale car.
#735
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
the you in this case must be YOU, in that YOU don't see any value, but you're completely and utterly wrong that others don't see value at different price points. as has been pointed out, many EXTREMELY wealthy people buy a $90K car instead of a $100K car to "save money". sure it's all a rationalization, but they think the $90K car is good value TO THEM but the $100K isn't.
you're doing what several on here do and that's only see things through your own point of view.
exactly.
we know your argument and it's flat wrong.
TO YOU. some people see a $30K rolex watch or a $50K diamond ring as "good value" perhaps because they think it will retain or even appreciate in value. for me, i see an ugly watch i'd never spend $30K on.
correct not everyone wants an S-Class but neither do you know what everyone wants. what we're saying is people vary widely and have different amounts they're willing to spend and rationalize need, want, and value in different ways. for example, a $100K LX is probably considered by most of its buyers as a GREAT value because a) it's highly reliable, and b) it should last forever. for me, i get bored of cars in 6 years or less, so i wouldn't want one so it doesn't represent good value. but i do like the LX in many ways!
you're doing what several on here do and that's only see things through your own point of view.
I don't think you can ever say luxury cars or goods can ever be considered a value.
correct not everyone wants an S-Class but neither do you know what everyone wants. what we're saying is people vary widely and have different amounts they're willing to spend and rationalize need, want, and value in different ways. for example, a $100K LX is probably considered by most of its buyers as a GREAT value because a) it's highly reliable, and b) it should last forever. for me, i get bored of cars in 6 years or less, so i wouldn't want one so it doesn't represent good value. but i do like the LX in many ways!