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I disagree and what's very strange is you're setting a threshold to where you say value no longer exists ($50k-$60k). So you admit that value exists below that but think it disappears beyond that?? Why do you feel that way and what is the $60k based on? How do you justify value between a $35k car and $60k car? Do you think it's possible someone else is thinking there is no way to justify the difference between a $20k car and a $50k car - and that value to them doesn't exist beyond say $30k?
To me, value exists at every price point of every category for absolutely everything you can buy. Houses can be astronomically priced but still offer great "value" (good school district, low price relative to others in neighborhood, needs no cosmetic work, offers likelihood of appreciation). I'm in sales and have sold pieces of capital equipment that cost 5x the amount of my competitor. People bought like crazy because the value proposition was valid and it was a better "investment" (even though it still depreciated over time) for them.
I understand this is just your opinion (although it wasn't really stated like an opinion), but just because you don't see the value in something above a certain price point doesn't mean it doesn't exist to others. I bet if you asked someone driving a $250k Rolls Royce how they justified the purchase you'd get some insight into the ways other people think and make decisions. You may still disagree, but I find if I listen close enough I always learn something.
Ok, so I guess my way of wording things were not great or clear. There is no value in buying any high end car, like I had said, this just my opinion, I don't put any value in anything that ever depreciates especially when it comes to cars. Comparing it to a house is not something that makes sense, houses and more importantly the property is sits on go up in value, so I see value in many different aspects when it come to real estate. Now, where I used the 50K price point, is that as you go lower in prices, differently manufacturers starting prices start to align, the disparity between a Lexus LS or a Mercedes Benz S class is not for the same purposes or reasoning compared to a Hyundai Elantra or a Toyota Corolla, bottom end products sell on price where as high end products sell on prestige. The 50K price point is just something I used, it could be lower actually.
I could be wrong, but I don't see buying a LS for $30K less than a S class as any value......cheaper yes, but not a value in any way.
The Motor Trend review that raised some concerns among CL members about the LS ride was done on an air spring car with run-flat 20 inch wheels so that may be why the reviewer thought that Lexus rode a bit on the harsh side (someone already pointed this out on this thread). IMO prospective buyers are going to really need to look at the suspension specs on their test drive car, because it may make or break the buying decision.
This is an older CNET review done this past September and here, the writer also notes some ride harshness, but it's on the standard coil/adaptive shock car, while he thought the air ride car was nearly S class-like in its road-going demeanor. Frustratingly enough, with these reviewers, they don't always tell you what tire/wheel and suspension they're riding on. Basically to get the smooth ride with some handling prowess you're probably into $85-95K territory.
During this event, I drive a few version of the LS, including one with the standard adaptive coil suspension and another with air suspension. The ride in the former feels mediocre, communicating bumps and roughness in the road similar to much less expensive cars, but an example with the air suspension makes a huge difference, bringing the LS 500 closer to the ride quality of the benchmark Mercedes-Benz S-Class.
As the LS 500 includes Sport and Sport Plus modes, I hit the twisty bits with enthusiasm, but quickly realize the car's weight and understeer inhibit any real performance. Likewise, it's too slow to downshift for engaging throttle response. Unless Lexus can make the LS substantially lighter, it probably shouldn't waste too much time tuning for sport performance.
Yeah, run flats are wretched. I have no idea why Lexus decided to go that route. I think Audi is the last hold out that offers normal tires and a space-saving spare in most of their models. At least my car has it and I'm grateful for that.
Run flats are inherently rough (they have to be), noisy, very, very, very expensive to replace and aren't always successful in doing what they're supposed to do. Lexus made a bad choice in go this route. At the very least, they could have offered a space-saving spare.
I have little doubt that the run flats are probably contributing to some of the noise and harshness that have been reported.
These are still preproduction cars, so they are going to have a little bit of time for the finishing touches. As far the sales are concerned, I am pretty sure that the orders in Japan are a good sign, regardless of whether or not it is cheaper than the alternatives. The Lexusenthusiast.com story also says that over 70% of them are for the hybrid.
Yeah, they compounded the issue on the MT test car with 20" wheels and run-flats. You gotta wonder who's in charge of press vehicles because first impressions and what's written makes a difference in the public perceptions.
These are still preproduction cars, so they are going to have a little bit of time for the finishing touches. As far the sales are concerned, I am pretty sure that the orders in Japan are a good sign, regardless of whether or not it is cheaper than the alternatives. The Lexusenthusiast.com story also says that over 70% of them are for the hybrid.
Japan certainly has some pent up demand for a new Lexus flagship so it's not surprising that there is 9K on the order book. After all it's the home team on its own turf, nothing less would be expected. Most of these will be chauffeur-driven limos for Japanese business men and corporate execs. The CNET reviewer certainly liked the hybrid and getting 25/30-ish mpg city/highway is certainly good for this class of car. But Japan is not China, and certainly not the US. It's an early indication for sure, but February onward will provide a clear picture about sales.
Japan certainly has some pent up demand for a new Lexus flagship so it's not surprising that there is 9K on the order book. After all it's the home team on its own turf, nothing less would be expected. Most of these will be chauffeur-driven limos for Japanese business men and corporate execs. The CNET reviewer certainly liked the hybrid and getting 25/30-ish mpg city/highway is certainly good for this class of car. But Japan is not China, and certainly not the US. It's an early indication for sure, but February onward will provide a clear picture about sales.
Lexus has been doing very well in China. They expect sales to be around 130k or more this year and the ES sells more there than the U.S. I look forward to seeing what the LS does.
Lexus has been doing very well in China. They expect sales to be around 130k or more this year and the ES sells more there than the U.S. I look forward to seeing what the LS does.
I would say though, that there is sometimes an inverse relationship with some specific luxury brands/cars. Buick sedans don't do well in the US, but they are quite popular in China. Lexus LS has been on the decline in the US for a few years because it was not new compared to the others. The new model might do quite well in Japan and China, but could also lose its traditional base in the US, while trying to chase younger buyers. That's going to be what February onward is about. Do the traditional people head over to Genesis, or do the younger buyers make up the loss and head over to an LS?
I would say though, that there is sometimes an inverse relationship with some specific luxury brands/cars. Buick sedans don't do well in the US, but they are quite popular in China. Lexus LS has been on the decline in the US for a few years because it was not new compared to the others. The new model might do quite well in Japan and China, but could also lose its traditional base in the US, while trying to chase younger buyers. That's going to be what February onward is about. Do the traditional people head over to Genesis, or do the younger buyers make up the loss and head over to an LS?
From a corporate point of view, it would make sense to use your flagships to target new emerging markets and audiences (at a loss, break even or minimal growth) while maintaining steady sales + growth using other segments.
but this kinda contradicts everything else you've said because lexus broke everything previous with the new LS. it ain't conservative. . it has a much more imaginative (beautiful) interior, new tech like massive HUD, very curvy outside styling, etc.
Actually, it doesn't. Even though I'm truly elated with the new LS 500, it does not negate that in certain areas, Lexus could have done a better job developing the 5th generation LS.
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
it doesn't have a V8
This is a major pet peeve of mine, which is why I've specifically mentioned the glaring omission of a standard/optional V8 numerous times.
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
it doesn't come in two lengths.
Neither does the 2019 Audi A8, BMW 7 series or Mercedes Benz S Class as they are all long wheelbase models for U.S. markets. Lexus had to make some changes for the
LS 500 to be competitive & having just one long wheelbase available in the lineup was a smart, prudent decision on their part.
The long story short is that Japanese cars are supposed to be reliable (according to the latest CR, they really are not at the top, except for Toyota and Lexus). The instant that is not true, all bets are off. Again, I remember seeing someone say here on the 4th gen forum, that if they had known the LS would cost this much to fix, they would have kept their 7 series. A good amount of people would feel that way, who have the pocketbook to purchase a flagship new.
I thought that at least from the beginning, Lexus did not set out to meet the competition, they set out to beat. Today, there seems to be all kinds of justification for the areas where "reviewers" feel the new car has fallen short.
Not sure what the % is, but I suspect that that the majority lease these vehicles. If so, one could argue, who cares about the reliability? It's not your car, and you will possess it under a full factory warranty for the entire lease. So why not get a BMW or MB?
If you are purchasing, the above doesn't apply. Reliability would then matter, over a long period of time.
The long story short is that Japanese cars are supposed to be reliable (according to the latest CR, they really are not at the top, except for Toyota and Lexus). The instant that is not true, all bets are off. Again, I remember seeing someone say here on the 4th gen forum, that if they had known the LS would cost this much to fix, they would have kept their 7 series. A good amount of people would feel that way, who have the pocketbook to purchase a flagship new.
I thought that at least from the beginning, Lexus did not set out to meet the competition, they set out to beat. Today, there seems to be all kinds of justification for the areas where "reviewers" feel the new car has fallen short.
Not sure what the % is, but I suspect that that the majority lease these vehicles. If so, one could argue, who cares about the reliability? It's not your car, and you will possess it under a full factory warranty for the entire lease. So why not get a BMW or MB?
If you are purchasing, the above doesn't apply. Reliability would then matter, over a long period of time.
As a huge sidenote, its interesting how other parts of the world are viewing the LS launch. I was reading an article about how Lexus has officially entered the Indian market, and how its very tough sell for Lexus who have historically been associated with reliability. Since owners are used to prepaid maintenance being purchased or being included with their deals, reliability is really not a concern. Price is a huge concern and emotional and badge appeal. Some potential owners are simply unwilling to pay the same amount for an LS over a S. (The LX is an exception, its a vehicle tour de force that everyone loves)
I looked at a used G90 while getting some parts for my FX50. Styling seems to be reminiscent of something in the early 2000s and the deprecation was pretty high ($20k drop for 8k miles, msrp only). Didnt get a chance to drive it, but while value is pretty high for it, I'd still take a LS500 over it any day....
Yeah, run flats are wretched. I have no idea why Lexus decided to go that route. I think Audi is the last hold out that offers normal tires and a space-saving spare in most of their models. At least my car has it and I'm grateful for that.
Run flats are inherently rough (they have to be), noisy, very, very, very expensive to replace and aren't always successful in doing what they're supposed to do. Lexus made a bad choice in go this route. At the very least, they could have offered a space-saving spare.
I have little doubt that the run flats are probably contributing to some of the noise and harshness that have been reported.
Runflats are rough, nothing that cant be fixed with a simple tire change with some sidewall instead of 20s. I`d say 18s nonrunflat and air suspension should be super comfy (not pretty but function over form)
12-26-17, 12:28 PM
it ain't conservative. . it has a much more imaginative (beautiful) interior, new tech like massive HUD, very curvy outside styling, etc.
