Is Toyota's quality-control slipping?
09-21-17, 07:31 AM
#1
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Is Toyota's quality-control slipping?
There's been much talk on the forum lately about Honda's overall drop in quality and an increase in the number of issues we have been seeing on Honda products....though, from what I've seen, Hondas, at least on the surface, still come out of the factory screwed together like Swiss Watches, with the issues being in major components under the skin, or in issues that later arise and are not easily noticed by a preliminary visual and tactile-inspection. With Toyota, though, it seems to be the opposite....they have always been known for a rock-solid chassis and drivetrain, and apparently still are....many Toyota vehicles routinely go 200,000 miles or more on the major components. But, from what I can tell, some recent Toyota models (not all) seem to be slipping in other areas....durability/solidness of interior trim/hardware, less gloss and more orange-peel in some of the paint jobs, and in some components not being as carefully assembled as in previous years. When the Avalon was re-designed in 2014, I noticed some very thin plastic trim pieces inside (the glove-box door, for instance, felt almost paper-thin and with a flimsy latch), and the twirl-**** seat-heater controls on the condole felt so thin and loose they wobbled in your fingers as you adjusted them. I sat inside several new C-HR models a few weeks ago (I was going to write up a review, but then got busy with other things...my new car came in)...most of the C-HRs seemed adequately well-assembled inside, but with the typical very thin plastic, and one of them had a glaring problem...the entire dash trim-cover, that runs along the lower side of the dash, a large piece of thin plastic, was sprung out about an inch or so on one side where it fit into the lower-steering column, partially covering up the engine start/stop button...it was difficult to even get a finger through the hole to reach the button. I tried to align/repair it myself (as I sometimes do with minor defects I come across), but there was a problem with the fit-tabs on the edge....I simply couldn't get it to hold, so I gave up. Now, of course, one isolated problem like that is not necessarily indicative of a general factory trend, and it is entirely possible that it was assembled properly at the factory, and then some Dufus got into the car after it was delivered and accidentally knocked it with his kneecap or foot, springing it out of position...but my point is that this kind of stuff was virtually unheard of on brand-new Toyotas decades ago. My old Flight Instructor from decades ago (a dyed-in-the-wool Toyota fan), who I have remained friend wither many years (I taught him about cars, and he taught me about airplanes LOL), has had issues with two relatively new Toyota Siennas now. One of them is his personal one (he now carries a lot of bulky things around on his new job, and needs the interior room), and the other being owned by the company he now works for, with what he says is Toyota dragging their feet on warranty-coverage. He told me his personal van had sunroof issues, but didn't go into the company-owned one in detail. Just last night, on the phone, he told me that, after decades of repeat Toyota ownership (and one cheap, base-level Hyundai Accent stuck in between for economy/commuting), he may be ready to move on to other brands.
Now, of course, one or two bad apples does not ruin a whole bushel...we can be quite clear on that. And it is possible to have problems from any manufacturer....my own reliability experience with my 2006 Subaru Outback, while generally good, was not as good as I would have hoped for, given the brand's excellent reputation. (It went through the very worst of winter conditions like butter, though, and IMO was the ultimate snow-vehicle). Toyota, as a brand, still ranks very high in both Consumer Reports and J.D. Power quality/reliability rankings...at or near the top. And, I have NOT seen the same assembly slip-ups in Lexus products that I have on recent Toyotas, though some of the Lexus paint-jobs today, though still good, aren't quite what they were several years ago. But I do find some general rands (at least in my experience) disturbing with Toyota, and some of it may (?) be attributed to cost-cutting.
Anyhow, what are your views?
I'm sure a subject like this, on a Toyota/Lexus forum, will generate a number of replies and opinions.
Now, of course, one or two bad apples does not ruin a whole bushel...we can be quite clear on that. And it is possible to have problems from any manufacturer....my own reliability experience with my 2006 Subaru Outback, while generally good, was not as good as I would have hoped for, given the brand's excellent reputation. (It went through the very worst of winter conditions like butter, though, and IMO was the ultimate snow-vehicle). Toyota, as a brand, still ranks very high in both Consumer Reports and J.D. Power quality/reliability rankings...at or near the top. And, I have NOT seen the same assembly slip-ups in Lexus products that I have on recent Toyotas, though some of the Lexus paint-jobs today, though still good, aren't quite what they were several years ago. But I do find some general rands (at least in my experience) disturbing with Toyota, and some of it may (?) be attributed to cost-cutting.
Anyhow, what are your views?
I'm sure a subject like this, on a Toyota/Lexus forum, will generate a number of replies and opinions.
Last edited by mmarshall; 09-21-17 at 07:35 AM.
09-21-17, 07:58 AM
#2
Back in the day auto manufacturers made most of their parts. Nowadays auto manufacturers are designers and assemblers. There's so many parts manufacturers that make part for many different manufacturers. This is why I see that quality gaps from best to worst aren't that far apart. I think what makes most of the gap is more software related issues.
Of of course the now most infamous example of this is takata. Many makes and models share many parts and are just given different part numbers.
Of of course the now most infamous example of this is takata. Many makes and models share many parts and are just given different part numbers.
09-21-17, 08:31 AM
#3
Lexus Fanatic
09-21-17, 09:48 AM
#5
Lexus Champion
Here's my small sampling. I'll disregard my Toyota ownership from the 80s (Corolla, MR-2). I did not own any 90s era Toyotas, though my family has. I'll confine this to my own.
2006 Scion tC. I had something like 16 warranty repairs on the car. Rattles, stuck thermostat, headlight condensation, supercharger bearings, radio malfunction, etc. Loved the car, but it was in the shop at least every other month. Kept it for 2 years, 31k miles.
2007 4Runner V8. No rattles and no warranty repairs. Had it 3.5 years, 65k miles.
2011 Tacoma V6 4X4. No rattles. Had to have HVAC fan replaced for noise, as well as a squeaky clutch addressed. No other issues in 2.5 years, 24k miles.
2013 Lexus RX350. No rattles or warranty repairs. 3 years, 31k miles.
2014 Lexus IS350. No rattles or warranty repairs. 2 years, 16k miles.
2015 Lexus GS350. Current car. No rattles or warranty repairs. Almost 2 years, 13k miles.
2016 Toyota Highlander Hybrid. Current car. No rattles or warranty repairs. 1+ year, 11k miles.
So based on my experience over the past 12 years or so, I have not seen an increase in quality control issues.
2006 Scion tC. I had something like 16 warranty repairs on the car. Rattles, stuck thermostat, headlight condensation, supercharger bearings, radio malfunction, etc. Loved the car, but it was in the shop at least every other month. Kept it for 2 years, 31k miles.
2007 4Runner V8. No rattles and no warranty repairs. Had it 3.5 years, 65k miles.
2011 Tacoma V6 4X4. No rattles. Had to have HVAC fan replaced for noise, as well as a squeaky clutch addressed. No other issues in 2.5 years, 24k miles.
2013 Lexus RX350. No rattles or warranty repairs. 3 years, 31k miles.
2014 Lexus IS350. No rattles or warranty repairs. 2 years, 16k miles.
2015 Lexus GS350. Current car. No rattles or warranty repairs. Almost 2 years, 13k miles.
2016 Toyota Highlander Hybrid. Current car. No rattles or warranty repairs. 1+ year, 11k miles.
So based on my experience over the past 12 years or so, I have not seen an increase in quality control issues.
09-21-17, 09:51 AM
#6
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
i believe there's little difference across all brands today. 'reports' that show "2 defects per hundred cars" being "100% worse" than "1 defect per hundred cars" is just headline grabbing, but ultimately meaningless.
i also think the differences will become even smaller with greater automation, greater computer design, better materials, better processes, not to mention brutal competition.
i also think the differences will become even smaller with greater automation, greater computer design, better materials, better processes, not to mention brutal competition.
09-21-17, 10:06 AM
#7
Lexus Champion
If it is the quality of the plastics you are concerned about, there are a number of factors that affect the look and feel of the plastics in a new car.
Yes, plastics may be getting thinner and lighter, but there is a very obvious reason for this. All automakers are adding lightness to their vehicles -- even as the load-bearing structure is getting stronger and heavier -- in an effort to reduce fuel consumption.
New plastics are being constructed with new methods and new materials. This is being done to reduce weight, and to use more-environmentally friendly methods and materials. Plastics made with new methods and new materials may not look and feel like old plastics.
Plastics in modern vehicles are very likely to be supplied by outside suppliers, as partially- or even completely-finished components (like a complete dashboard assembly). They arrive right on time to be used, avoiding the need to warehouse supplies. When they arrive, components are very likely NOT inspected; an automaker's agreement with its suppliers allows the automaker to trust that the components will have been built in accordance with requirements and inspected prior to shipment.
Suppliers of plastic components will vary by the location of the assembly line. Plastic components in Japanese-assembled Toyota models may come from a supplier that is a member of the Toyota family of suppliers. Plastic components in North American-assembled Toyotas are very likely supplied by large suppliers that also supply components to other North American automakers.
You get what you pay for. North American buyers are very price-sensitive and agreements with outside suppliers is a relatively easy method to reduce costs. If an automaker is not willing to pay top-dollar, it is not going to get top-quality product.
Yes, plastics may be getting thinner and lighter, but there is a very obvious reason for this. All automakers are adding lightness to their vehicles -- even as the load-bearing structure is getting stronger and heavier -- in an effort to reduce fuel consumption.
New plastics are being constructed with new methods and new materials. This is being done to reduce weight, and to use more-environmentally friendly methods and materials. Plastics made with new methods and new materials may not look and feel like old plastics.
Plastics in modern vehicles are very likely to be supplied by outside suppliers, as partially- or even completely-finished components (like a complete dashboard assembly). They arrive right on time to be used, avoiding the need to warehouse supplies. When they arrive, components are very likely NOT inspected; an automaker's agreement with its suppliers allows the automaker to trust that the components will have been built in accordance with requirements and inspected prior to shipment.
Suppliers of plastic components will vary by the location of the assembly line. Plastic components in Japanese-assembled Toyota models may come from a supplier that is a member of the Toyota family of suppliers. Plastic components in North American-assembled Toyotas are very likely supplied by large suppliers that also supply components to other North American automakers.
You get what you pay for. North American buyers are very price-sensitive and agreements with outside suppliers is a relatively easy method to reduce costs. If an automaker is not willing to pay top-dollar, it is not going to get top-quality product.
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09-21-17, 10:16 AM
#8
Lexus Fanatic
Here's my small sampling. I'll disregard my Toyota ownership from the 80s (Corolla, MR-2). I did not own any 90s era Toyotas, though my family has. I'll confine this to my own.
2006 Scion tC. I had something like 16 warranty repairs on the car. Rattles, stuck thermostat, headlight condensation, supercharger bearings, radio malfunction, etc. Loved the car, but it was in the shop at least every other month. Kept it for 2 years, 31k miles.
2007 4Runner V8. No rattles and no warranty repairs. Had it 3.5 years, 65k miles.
2011 Tacoma V6 4X4. No rattles. Had to have HVAC fan replaced for noise, as well as a squeaky clutch addressed. No other issues in 2.5 years, 24k miles.
2013 Lexus RX350. No rattles or warranty repairs. 3 years, 31k miles.
2014 Lexus IS350. No rattles or warranty repairs. 2 years, 16k miles.
2015 Lexus GS350. Current car. No rattles or warranty repairs. Almost 2 years, 13k miles.
2016 Toyota Highlander Hybrid. Current car. No rattles or warranty repairs. 1+ year, 11k miles.
So based on my experience over the past 12 years or so, I have not seen an increase in quality control issues.
2006 Scion tC. I had something like 16 warranty repairs on the car. Rattles, stuck thermostat, headlight condensation, supercharger bearings, radio malfunction, etc. Loved the car, but it was in the shop at least every other month. Kept it for 2 years, 31k miles.
2007 4Runner V8. No rattles and no warranty repairs. Had it 3.5 years, 65k miles.
2011 Tacoma V6 4X4. No rattles. Had to have HVAC fan replaced for noise, as well as a squeaky clutch addressed. No other issues in 2.5 years, 24k miles.
2013 Lexus RX350. No rattles or warranty repairs. 3 years, 31k miles.
2014 Lexus IS350. No rattles or warranty repairs. 2 years, 16k miles.
2015 Lexus GS350. Current car. No rattles or warranty repairs. Almost 2 years, 13k miles.
2016 Toyota Highlander Hybrid. Current car. No rattles or warranty repairs. 1+ year, 11k miles.
So based on my experience over the past 12 years or so, I have not seen an increase in quality control issues.
Totally agree. I was gonna say that but you beat me to it. Most of the current models are better than ever. The auto sales forecast is going to shrink and now expand for a while. Toyota knows they gotta be good.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 09-21-17 at 10:28 AM.
09-21-17, 10:25 AM
#9
I'd say improving. When compared to especially around 2007-2009 and some vehicles through 2014, most everything now that I've seen has much better fit and finish. There's a lot more leases now too so that could contribute to less new Toyota and Lexus vehicles hitting 200,000 miles or more.
09-21-17, 11:12 AM
#10
Lexus Fanatic
Can anyone explain why so many Toyota/Lexus OE parts say made in Japan? I like that, but it would seem that it would be less costly to manufacture elsewhere. As mentioned, even BMW uses parts made in Poland, Mexico, Hungary, and Turkey, even if the vehicle is assembled in Germany....
09-21-17, 11:17 AM
#11
Lexus Fanatic
09-21-17, 11:19 AM
#12
Lexus Fanatic
I just notice that the majority of parts I have ordered, come in Toyota bags that say made in Japan....something was made in USA, I forget what, but the vast majority seems to be Japan....
09-21-17, 11:26 AM
#13
Lexus Fanatic
Buy an American, France or Canadian made Toyota, and it will likely say otherwise.
09-21-17, 11:31 AM
#14
https://www.autonews.com/assets/PDF/CA89220617.PDF
09-21-17, 11:37 AM
#15
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
If it is the quality of the plastics you are concerned about, there are a number of factors that affect the look and feel of the plastics in a new car.
Yes, plastics may be getting thinner and lighter, but there is a very obvious reason for this. All automakers are adding lightness to their vehicles -- even as the load-bearing structure is getting stronger and heavier -- in an effort to reduce fuel consumption.
New plastics are being constructed with new methods and new materials. This is being done to reduce weight, and to use more-environmentally friendly methods and materials. Plastics made with new methods and new materials may not look and feel like old plastics.
Plastics in modern vehicles are very likely to be supplied by outside suppliers, as partially- or even completely-finished components (like a complete dashboard assembly). They arrive right on time to be used, avoiding the need to warehouse supplies. When they arrive, components are very likely NOT inspected; an automaker's agreement with its suppliers allows the automaker to trust that the components will have been built in accordance with requirements and inspected prior to shipment.
Suppliers of plastic components will vary by the location of the assembly line. Plastic components in Japanese-assembled Toyota models may come from a supplier that is a member of the Toyota family of suppliers. Plastic components in North American-assembled Toyotas are very likely supplied by large suppliers that also supply components to other North American automakers.
Yes, plastics may be getting thinner and lighter, but there is a very obvious reason for this. All automakers are adding lightness to their vehicles -- even as the load-bearing structure is getting stronger and heavier -- in an effort to reduce fuel consumption.
New plastics are being constructed with new methods and new materials. This is being done to reduce weight, and to use more-environmentally friendly methods and materials. Plastics made with new methods and new materials may not look and feel like old plastics.
Plastics in modern vehicles are very likely to be supplied by outside suppliers, as partially- or even completely-finished components (like a complete dashboard assembly). They arrive right on time to be used, avoiding the need to warehouse supplies. When they arrive, components are very likely NOT inspected; an automaker's agreement with its suppliers allows the automaker to trust that the components will have been built in accordance with requirements and inspected prior to shipment.
Suppliers of plastic components will vary by the location of the assembly line. Plastic components in Japanese-assembled Toyota models may come from a supplier that is a member of the Toyota family of suppliers. Plastic components in North American-assembled Toyotas are very likely supplied by large suppliers that also supply components to other North American automakers.
You get what you pay for. North American buyers are very price-sensitive and agreements with outside suppliers is a relatively easy method to reduce costs. If an automaker is not willing to pay top-dollar, it is not going to get top-quality product.
That solidness and quality in Kia products (I've mentioned it before, several times), BTW, is not just my imagination....Kia and Genesis now rank #1 and #2 in J.D. Power's Initial-Quality list.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...udy/103050990/
Last edited by mmarshall; 09-21-17 at 11:46 AM.