pman6

now it just comes down to the price.

With all the great car options these days, will as many people care about the supra besides the nostalgic...

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

I was at the L.A. Auto Show yesterday and there was no Supra MKV or FT-1 on display as everyone knows. I asked a Toyota rep why the Supra wasn't making a showing and the response was that it just wasn't ready yet and no one knew which future auto show it would debut in. She said maybe Detroit or Geneva but was only personally speculating. She said she had been bombarded with Supra questions for three days already and I wasn't surprised. She was WELL aware of the interest.

I mentioned to that Toyota rep and a very nice Lexus rep for the LC500 that Supra customers are expecting a tunable 6cyl twin turbo and definitely a manual transmission... especially on that particular iconic car. They couldn't offer any information about that and truly knew nothing else that we don't on the Internet but they both heard those points loud and clear and I wasn't the only one who had said basically the same things to them in the last few days alone. Both reps were enthusiastic about the Supra questions but really knew nothing more than we do right now. However, I do hope the feedback from customers asking about them and mentioning the features they are expecting do get filtered back to Toyota management.

Also, I got the impression that no one is confused that this car is going to be called "Supra" despite Toyota execs hemming and hawing about whether they should or shouldn't use the name. The Toyota and Lexus reps at no time ever rephrased questions to "an upcoming Toyota sports car" or anything to deflect from the use of the model name "Supra" which they used themselves.

To the Lexus rep I also mentioned I was glad the LC500 had a true Torsen LSD option and in a friendly way suggested that more performance trim and F-Sport Lexus products should have Torsen LSD options... since Toyota owns the company that makes and has the patents on Torsens. It's just one voice of potential feedback but he heard me and I got the impression he was a car guy himself

A totally different experience when I went to the Alfa Romeo booth and asked whether or not they'd release a 6-speed manual Guilia Quadrofolio which was answered with a smilingly polite "we never say never to that but.... eh....meh..." :/ It was okay though. The Cadillac booth with an ATS-V 6-speed manual was not far away and everyone was waiting in line to get seat time in that thing

Toyota has to know the customer base is there for the most niche enthusiast version of this vehicle possible. All they have to do is observe the gearheads at the show gravitating to the kinds of specific models the Supra would compete with.

UDel

There are not that many sports cars in its price range, most are either relatively inexpensive 4 cylinders or the others are over 90K.

MattyG

What a nostalgic trip back to the 90's and the articles about a Toyota Supra that was listed at $50K during its heyday. That was what really stopped Toyota in its tracks. They were trying to sell you a car that cost that kind of money and had that kind of performance. People just balked, so they didn't sell many of them and smart shoppers waited for the discounts and scored them for $40K instead.

A potential MKV using that name has a lot to live up to and that may be the problem. A lot of enthusiasts are going to talk MKIV all day long because that was a legendary car. Even today 0-60 in a stock Supra turbo in 4.6 seconds is just astonishing performance. 13's in the 1/4. But today there's so much more competition from everywhere that you have a problem as a Toyota product planner. You've got retro-muscle cars, AMG, M, RS, Red Sport, Corvette etc. How do you price such a car and how are you going to deliver performance for a specific dollar without pricing yourself out of the market?

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

^^ EXACTLY. And Toyota execs know this history as well as Tatsuya Tada and Akio Toyoda. This is why, I think, they are not exactly chasing all the same performance levels of the models that evolved from what USED to be the MKIV Turbo's competition in the 90's. Instead they are probably going for a slightly more affordable model (what was $50k in 1993 is now the equivalent of $85k in 2017) that rekindles what made the MKIV design special, fun and hopefully also what made it durable for tuning back in its day.

I think they looked at what Nissan did with the R35 GTR and saw that it retained its Godzilla status by going VERY upmarket in price and in design from what the still extremely popular R32, R33 and R34 Skyline GT-R's were about and cost in order to keep chasing the same nameplates it used to go up against, all of which also have grown tremendously in price, specifications and very much in the type of cars they have evolved into from what they all were in the 1990's.

If a lot of people thought a $50k Supra Turbo was expensive in the 90's the people who want the MKV will think $85k is even more out of reach for most. $100k+ for a Nissan GTR today is not in any way, affordable or attainable for most people who love the most legendary Nissan model... which used to be a very special version of the mass-produced Skyline executive cars.

They aren't going to chase the R35 GTR with the MKV. I think they are going to push the shared platform as far as they possibly can in stock form but I think they are going to compete not with $85k+ cars but more $40k-$50k (in today's dollars) ballpark vehicles while embracing MKIV quirks and design traits in a 2017-2019 sportscar. It should be properly powerful enough in stock form and be extremely fun to drive but should have as much MKIV channeling as possible... which would mean a manual transmission option on the top spec 6cyl turbo model, rear drive only with an LSD, staggered tire sizes and an engine that can be boosted well beyond stock and built to handle much more power than stock. They MUST know the target buyers for this car are going to tune it and crank up the boost, just as people did with the MKIV Turbo which had "only" 320hp despite laying down a 4.5 second 0-60.

^^ All my cumulative speculation based on everything I've learned so far but this approach would make a lot of sense to me and I hope I am not wrong in my theory about what they've designed the MKV to be. I don't think they're betting against themselves by not directly competing with $100k+ GTR's, Corvettes and 911 Turbos. I think they're probably betting on having built a durable enough flagship sportscar that is extremely good in stock form but which can be modified to be a far more potent machine and punch at cars well above its original MSRP. That is exactly what happened with the MKIV Turbos. Stock they are great and impressive but was the tuning community that really unleashed their real legend.

I'm not sure I think either a BMW B58 I-6 twin turbo engine or a Toyota V6 with twin turbos will be able to handle ALL of the abuse the iron-block 2JZ engines are known to hold with considerable cash invested but that's like comparing the iron-block RB26DETT's legendary potential to what we've seen the aluminum-block VR38DETT put out in extreme power figures.

Further, I would not be surprised if making the 2018-2019 Supra roughly match the 90's Supra Turbo's specs and engineer in as much durability as possible with the expectation that customers would tune it up even higher than stock could be why Akio Toyota told his engineers that he wanted "an emphasis on rear wheel grip".

Now if you were all but expecting customers for a new turbocharged Supra to tune and crank up the boost just like the old car and it's a rear-drive only sportscar then wouldn't it make sense to over-engineer the vehicle to be able to handle and put down horsepower and torque levels far in excess of what the stock engine output calls for?

Just something that occurred to me as a possibility. For this theory to be proven correct, everything would hinge completely on the chassis, engine and driveline being made to very durable over-engineered standards well in excess of what the stock power output requires. In other words, the opposite of how the FR-S/86/BRZ were engineered to a certain cost point since those cars were about a totally different kind of experience as affordable driving cars not intended for high horsepower. The Supra MKV, even if it isn't a 500-600hp car in stock form, should be very capable of those and higher horsepower levels should owners choose to take them there.

And to beat a dead horse even further, this is also the reason I fully expect them to offer a non-GTR-chasing Supra with a manual transmission in the highest performance trim level... because that's also entirely in line with what a Supra MKIV successor is about. They will have a BMW/ZF auto or DCT... we know that. But it would be totally out of character to not have a very strong manual transmission right alongside it.

Anyway, those are my guesses as to what they're doing. Here's hoping it's that or much better by the time of release

Rhambler

Makes you wonder if they're having second thoughts releasing this with a BMW engine and other BMW bits and pieces.

Or, maybe it has the BMW engine, but realize their version of the car, based on their plans, made it achingly SLOW and are trying to figure out why...

Or, maybe it has a REAL Toyota DYNAMIC FORCE engine (what a dumb misnomer) and realize that it is really, really embarrassingly SLOW and trying everything to fix that...

Not sure which one, but if I had to guess, I would choose the former. Toyota's recent spate of engines (the Dynamic Forces) are really bad in my opinion.

MattyG

No Supra at the N.A. International Auto Show in Detroit either. Toyota wants you to look at their SUVs.

http://www.motortrend.com/news/toyot...lineup-expand/

But there is some rationale here to think about. A mass market manufacturer like Toyota can't really just spend and spend on a niche market so they're spreading out the cost with the BMW partnership and building this car at Magna Steyr. If they went all in and did it themselves, built it in Japan - what are the returns? By the time they price it to where they make money on it - it just ends up being the last Supra (if that's what it will even be called). An unfortunately, overpriced niche specialty car that ages into a killer reputation for nostalgic 90's memories.

They are going to have to put it in the $45-55K slot and max out at $65K. You go beyond that and you're a Nissan GTR.

There are positives: it should have a light curb weight because the Z4 is projected at 3200 lbs. That's important - you stick a Bimmer turbo six out front and you might extract some great straight line times and excellent suspension performance. So the speculation that it might be slow... well we don't know that because they've never said it was a Porsche, Corvette or M3 killer.

Remember, the previous Z4 was no slouch. If Toyota actually decided that they would work on this with BMW, then you might see some positive results. But if you price a Toyota at $75K, who's going to buy it. It could have electron flux capacitor cold fusion and people would balk at going to a Toyota dealership to look at it. You're approaching Lexus LC territory here.

Rhambler

Well that’s more inclination that what I stated really is the case.

This car was jointly developed. Plans and specs were laid out, and considering the BMW one is done and showcased, really leads me to believe Toyota’s version stunk and they are frantically trying to fix it.

I think it is engine related. Like I said, it’s either Toyota royaling screwing up a BMW engine by turning it into a grandpa car (not on purpose mind you), OR it’s a Dynamic Force engine and they saw first hand that engines designed for hybrids, thermal efficiency and fuel enconomy doesn’t suit this car very well, no matter how hard they tried to tune it lol. It won’t work.

Those are two plausible scenarios and I stand by the BMW engine scenario more than the Toyota one.

MattyG

This could be an eventual outcome. Toyota would never allow negative headlines or online angst about any of its products being labelled as troublesome and unreliable. Especially a blingy specialty car like this. This is hazardous iceberg filled waters where a mass market manufacturer partners with a luxury sports sedan maker. It's a new thing. BMW gets away with it and releases their version because they know the early adopters will flock to the dealership. Toyota? Not so much.

RNM GS3

I think the intro of the cars was always planned to be staggered.

First the Z4 then Supra.
They may bring it to NY auto show or Concours in August.
Then put it on sale in 2019 Q1.

This is typical Lexus / Toyota.
New LS still not out and production version was out a year ago at the auto shows

plex

iTrader: (11)

This is a post by chevydude from discussion on Supraforums, just passing what was posted. That thread has been pretty accurate with some folks claiming to have inside information but who knows.

jadu

iTrader: (42)

^^^ very interesting. I was actually thinking about the Celica reading the posts in the thread; never correlated it with the MKII Celica Supra

Rhambler

Sound like a derivation of BMW's B58 engine more so than any Toyota engine.

I don't think the delay in presenting this car has anything to do with a "staggered" release with BMW. There are reports of heavy testing still going on and, by their own admission, have said that they still haven't reached a "production" version yet, which tells me that they weren't pleased with whatever came out (i.e. it's probably SLOW).

The big question is: can it be salvaged or will they release a slow Supra that will still probably be overpriced.