MM Review: 2017 Hyundai Ioniq
12-16-17, 06:16 AM
#16
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
If people are catching on, and Toyota cannot just rely on reliability, why then is the average selling prices of Toyota (and Honda) cars and most trucks and SUVs $2000-$3000 higher on average than Hyundai and almost all American cars that are comparable? Why is Toyota and Hondas resale values considerably higher than Hyundai and almost American cars?
For the record, I don't think Hyundai sales are doing very well. Toyota also often sells their cars for more money although they often have less tech.
12-16-17, 06:49 AM
#17
Lexus Fanatic
I don't see the trends you listed happening here in Los Angeles. Hyundais and Kias sell extremely well here, along with their Toyota and Honda counterparts. As far as transaction prices, I cannot comment on that with any certainty. I do know however, that Hyundai has always undercut prices since their beginning. Perhaps that trend never faded away. But I don't see them as the bargain they once were. Again, I speak for Los Angeles. All this could be different in other regions of the US.
Lastly, I don't think one can base a car's success simply by looking at their transaction prices. A company may have their own unique way of producing or selling a product at a lower cost, then passing those savings on to the consumer.
Lastly, I don't think one can base a car's success simply by looking at their transaction prices. A company may have their own unique way of producing or selling a product at a lower cost, then passing those savings on to the consumer.
For all this talk about Hyundai, I have attached a sales figures chart (amazing what one can find with a little research):
Hyundai is performing poorly in the US market for 2017. Hyundai is simply not showing growth.
http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/hyundai/
12-16-17, 07:10 AM
#18
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Toyota's headquarters was just outside Los Angeles until just recently and so was Honda's (I think it was close to Toyota). Add in sponsorships like the Honda Arena in California as well as the Toyota Sports Center for the LA Kings practice facility, Toyota and Honda are HUGE in California.
Eventually, you want parity against your peers. There is a reason why Hyundai is offering long warranties, lifetime battery warranties etc etc, it is because they cannot compete with Toyota or Honda or even Chevrolet on level playing field
12-16-17, 07:17 AM
#19
Lexus Fanatic
Disagree. They offer those warranties because they can one-up their competitors without losing their shirts in warranty-costs. Like I said earlier, long-gone are the days when the corporation built junk. And, from the latest stats I've seen, they are now the world's 5th-largest automaker.
Classic California regulations, taxes, expenses, and a distinct anti-buisness environment drove Toyota's American headquarters out of the state. They are now In Plano, TX. It had (earlier) done the same to Nissan, which moved to Smyrna, TN. Seems like the state never learns.
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12-16-17, 08:05 AM
#20
Lexus Champion
Hyundai is performing poorly in the US market for 2017. Hyundai is simply not showing growth.
http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/hyundai/
http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/hyundai/
12-16-17, 08:15 AM
#21
Lexus Fanatic
Fair points and well said. However, in a shrinking car market, Toyota and Honda as well as Nissan are all up for YTD. Selling for more money and more profit.
Hyundai is not on the same level field as the Japan companies.
Hyundai is not on the same level field as the Japan companies.
12-16-17, 08:25 AM
#22
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
Question for you? If people are catching on, and Toyota cannot just rely on reliability, why then is the average selling prices of Toyota (and Honda) cars and most trucks and SUVs $2000-$3000 higher on average than Hyundai and almost all American cars that are comparable? Why is Toyota and Hondas resale values considerably higher than Hyundai and almost American cars?
Toyota also often sells their cars for more money although they often have less tech.
Here's the thing.....Consumer Reports rely mainly on customers opinions on quality and reliability. We humans are rather unreliable.....if we like something we overpraise it; if we don't like it, we go overboard and make it a demon! Besides, it takes a big person to admit they made the wrong choice, so its easier on the ego to lie about it!!. So I'd rather go with the hard data, collected through mandatory reporting of breakdowns and such. JD Power and Associates are the standard-bearer for brand quality reporting, at least currently. Maybe consumer reports will catch them at some point.
but i agree with you completely.Image......some of it outdated. Toyotas and Lexus still scores quite well on reliability, but the competition has caught up (or surpassed) on much of everything else.
The public, in general, is not like us here on car forums....they don't keep up with the auto market. Many of them are either not aware of changes in recent designs, or, for other reasons, sometimes just walk around with their heads in the sand. There are people out there (and I'm not kidding) that think that Kia and Hyundai still make the junk they did in the 80s and 90s....and should be avoided. They have absolutely no idea of what is going on today. There are also people who think that Mercedes is still the most solidly-built car in the world, like it was back then.
The public, in general, is not like us here on car forums....they don't keep up with the auto market. Many of them are either not aware of changes in recent designs, or, for other reasons, sometimes just walk around with their heads in the sand. There are people out there (and I'm not kidding) that think that Kia and Hyundai still make the junk they did in the 80s and 90s....and should be avoided. They have absolutely no idea of what is going on today. There are also people who think that Mercedes is still the most solidly-built car in the world, like it was back then.
he said junk in relation to hyundai in the 80s and 90s, not today.
12-16-17, 08:27 AM
#23
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
great chart bagwell, i imagine 2/3 of the ford top number are f-150's.
12-16-17, 08:35 AM
#24
Lexus Fanatic
just wondering, where do you get that data point from (bold)? i'd say it's because demand drives pricing and almost all toyota/honda models have been very much in demand for decades, so toyota/honda dealers don't tend to (need to) negotiate as much on price, ergo, higher transaction prices. well deserved by toyota/honda of course, it's not easy doing that for so long. each has had its stumbles of
course (bad civic gen a few years back, venza was no winner, etc.) and likely had to 'give' those away at the end of their runs, but in general, toyota/honda command high prices in my experience due to demand. if you won't buy it, they don't care because someone else will.
true and i think that works well with older, less tech savvy buyers. my local toyota dealer is a gold mine and has an endless stream of repeat retiree customers who buy middle trim camrys, rav4's etc by the boatload. they don't care about features, at all, they just know it's reliable, familiar, and drives easily. the dealer just tripled the size of their service dept too to handle more customers at once, which is where the real money is made.
careful, there's some who worship at the altar of CR. but i agree with you completely.
100% agree!
he said junk in relation to hyundai in the 80s and 90s, not today.
course (bad civic gen a few years back, venza was no winner, etc.) and likely had to 'give' those away at the end of their runs, but in general, toyota/honda command high prices in my experience due to demand. if you won't buy it, they don't care because someone else will.
true and i think that works well with older, less tech savvy buyers. my local toyota dealer is a gold mine and has an endless stream of repeat retiree customers who buy middle trim camrys, rav4's etc by the boatload. they don't care about features, at all, they just know it's reliable, familiar, and drives easily. the dealer just tripled the size of their service dept too to handle more customers at once, which is where the real money is made.
careful, there's some who worship at the altar of CR.
but i agree with you completely.100% agree!
he said junk in relation to hyundai in the 80s and 90s, not today.
If you go to Hyundai website. Price out a sport Sonata and a SE Camry. To get each comparable and equipped the same, the Camry is about $3000+ and that is just MSRP figures.
The Sonata has way more advantages (I think 15) compared to the Camry yet they are charging less. This is not how two comparable brands operate in the less than 50K price segment
This is just a simple example. It is like that right across the board. If Hyundai is offered a very long warranty and Toyota buyers have to buy the extension for $1000+ then are the two brands on equal footing? No, they are not.
all of what I have said can also be applied to Toyota or Honda vs other brands as well. Tundra vs Domestics is an example where Toyota cannot charge more. Same with Lexus vs Germans but not Lexus Acura or Infiniti.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 12-16-17 at 08:47 AM.
12-16-17, 08:49 AM
#25
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Exactly. Compared to what Hyundai and Kia are building today, to refer to their offerings of 20 and 30 years ago as "junk" is generally accurate. 
Actually, the first slight hint of improvement, at least from what I could tell, came with the 1997 Tiburon. From there, it was almost all uphill, though sometimes slowly.
Actually, the first slight hint of improvement, at least from what I could tell, came with the 1997 Tiburon. From there, it was almost all uphill, though sometimes slowly.
12-16-17, 08:54 AM
#26
Lexus Fanatic
Exactly. Compared to what Hyundai and Kia are building today, to refer to their offerings of 20 and 30 years ago as "junk" is generally accurate.
Actually, the first slight hint of improvement, at least from what I could tell, came with the 1997 Tiburon. From there, it was almost all uphill, though sometimes slowly.
Actually, the first slight hint of improvement, at least from what I could tell, came with the 1997 Tiburon. From there, it was almost all uphill, though sometimes slowly.
12-16-17, 08:56 AM
#27
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
California is not only a large market for Toyota, but for practically every automaker...perhaps Tesla most of all, since the state traditionally has led others in providing an infrastructure for electric and other alternate-fuel vehicles such as natural gas, fuel-cell, ethanol, propane, etc... But my point was that vehicle-sales and the actual cost of doing business (and a crushing load of regulations) are two different things. CA may be a the best sales-market (and many figures put the D.C.-Baltimore region, where I live, second)....but Toyota (and some other automakers) simply couldn't afford to keep their headquarters there. And, BTW, VW/Audi of America built their new national HQ just a few miles from my house, in Herndon, VA...a D.C. suburb.
12-16-17, 09:04 AM
#28
Lexus Fanatic
California is not only a large market for Toyota, but for practically every automaker...perhaps Tesla most of all, since the state traditionally has led others in providing an infrastructure for electric and other alternate-fuel vehicles such as natural gas, fuel-cell, ethanol, propane, etc... But my point was that vehicle-sales and the actual cost of doing business (and a crushing load of regulations) are two different things. CA may be a the best sales-market (and many figures put the D.C.-Baltimore region, where I live, second)....but Toyota (and some other automakers) simply couldn't afford to keep their headquarters there. And, BTW, VW/Audi of America built their new national HQ just a few miles from my house, in Herndon, VA...a D.C. suburb.
What figures point to DC and Baltimore region as second?
12-16-17, 11:37 AM
#29
Pit Crew
12-16-17, 12:02 PM
#30
Lexus Champion
Honestly I think Hyundai and Toyota are now VERY equal in most ways.... Toyota had a huge head start and earned a huge following with their excellent reliability - Hyundai is still trying to catch up reputation wise after building junk in the 80s & 90s.