Where have all the big personal-luxury coupes gone?
12-25-17, 05:41 PM
#77
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
True, but the SS is produced only in small numbers (and appears to sell in even smaller numbers LOL). And, since GM has ended Holden production effective the end of this year, it is likely to be the last Holden-designed GM product in the American market. A shame, because I thought Holden did some nice vehicles. Their Maloo would have been an excellent successor to the former Chevy El Camino, but GM never brought it to the American market.
12-25-17, 07:04 PM
#78
Lexus Champion
In my opinion, the personal luxury car is a uniquely American car that diverged from the grand touring (GT) coupe (as opposed to a sports car).
The GT coupe was -- and lives on -- as a large, powerful, yet refined 2+2 coupe designed for driving long distances in great comfort. Current examples are the Mercedes-Benz S-Class coupe (formerly known as the CL-Class coupe), but NOT the C-Class coupe, and the Lexus LC. If you wanted to travel from Paris to Berlin in style and comfort but did not want to take the train, you would drive a GT coupe (but not a canyon-carving sports car). Similarly, if, at one time, you wanted to travel from Chicago to Los Angeles in style and comfort but did not want to take the train, you would drive a personal luxury car.
As was typical of post-WW2 USA (1950s, 1960s and early 1970s), things got ever larger and larger, and ever more exaggerated, and the American GT coupe / personal luxury was no different. But even hubris has a limit and by the late 1980s, they were gone and an effort to re-introduce personal luxury cars, in the retro-shape of the early-2000s Ford Thunderbird, was a failure.
The GT coupe was -- and lives on -- as a large, powerful, yet refined 2+2 coupe designed for driving long distances in great comfort. Current examples are the Mercedes-Benz S-Class coupe (formerly known as the CL-Class coupe), but NOT the C-Class coupe, and the Lexus LC. If you wanted to travel from Paris to Berlin in style and comfort but did not want to take the train, you would drive a GT coupe (but not a canyon-carving sports car). Similarly, if, at one time, you wanted to travel from Chicago to Los Angeles in style and comfort but did not want to take the train, you would drive a personal luxury car.
As was typical of post-WW2 USA (1950s, 1960s and early 1970s), things got ever larger and larger, and ever more exaggerated, and the American GT coupe / personal luxury was no different. But even hubris has a limit and by the late 1980s, they were gone and an effort to re-introduce personal luxury cars, in the retro-shape of the early-2000s Ford Thunderbird, was a failure.
12-26-17, 06:45 AM
#79
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
As was typical of post-WW2 USA (1950s, 1960s and early 1970s), things got ever larger and larger, and ever more exaggerated, and the American GT coupe / personal luxury was no different. But even hubris has a limit and by the late 1980s, they were gone and an effort to re-introduce personal luxury cars, in the retro-shape of the early-2000s Ford Thunderbird, was a failure.
12-26-17, 09:31 PM
#80
To some extent, though, that was apples and oranges. The two-seater 2000 Thunderbird, like the original '55-57 which it tried to imitate, was actually more of a large roadster than a coupe. The type of Thunderbird I (and this thread) referring to are the 2-door, 4-seat models ones made from 1958 up till its demise in late 1997. Some, in the late 60s/early 70s, even had a four-door option in the classic Lincoln Continental suicide/front-opening rear style.....certainly not true coupes.
The Japanese used to really make four door hardtops in the 80's and 90's, however by the 2000's, the Japanese seemed to move off four door hardtops.
Maybe due to window sealing issues?
1982-87 Mazda 929 Luce four door hardtop.
1991-95 Toyota Corolla Levin Hardtop
1986-90 Toyota Camry Prominent Hardtop [aka Lexus ES250]
1991-95 Toyota Crown Majesta Luxury 4 Door Hardtop
12-26-17, 09:37 PM
#81
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
(I owned one of these, BTW...a '65 4-door pillarless hardtop Electra, when I was in college).
Last edited by mmarshall; 12-26-17 at 09:42 PM.
12-27-17, 05:55 AM
#82
True four-door hardtops do not have a rigid B-pillar like what is on that four-door T-Bird I posted. With the windows down, they look more like this....it's called a "pillarless" hardtop. In fact, this particular body style was pretty much done away with for safety reasons......with no B-pillars, there just wasn't enough support to hold the roof up if the car flipped over. They also tended to develop rattles/squeaks, partly because of the body-on-frame construction, and partly because of the lack of center-body rigidity without the B-pillars.
(I owned one of these, BTW...a '65 4-door pillarless hardtop Electra, when I was in college).
(I owned one of these, BTW...a '65 4-door pillarless hardtop Electra, when I was in college).
The true hardtops have no B-pillars like the Mercedes S Class coupes.
Maybe for air seal, security and safety reasons, the Japanese almost always had hardtops with B-pillars.
However, today's S Class coupes are still true hardtops with no B-pillars?
12-27-17, 06:19 AM
#83
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Yes, good point. In the past, the lack of a rigid B-pillar was a potential safety-issue, but today's high-strength steels, new metallurgy, computer engineering, and other factors may compensate for that to an extent. Convertibles and folding-hardtops, for instance, often have pop-up roll-bars, and windshield headers are thick and sturdy.
12-27-17, 07:03 AM
#84
There you go.
The Mercedes S Class is your modern day big personal coupe.
Not many around these days due to efficiency & price.
For efficiency, today's land size is smaller, yet houses are larger thanks to multi storey vertical growth, culminating in high rise buildings.
In the same way, motor vehicles no longer grow horizontally in length & width like the traditional coupes - nowadays motor vehicles grow vertically in height for efficiency - called an SUV/CUV.
The Mercedes S Class is your modern day big personal coupe.
Not many around these days due to efficiency & price.
For efficiency, today's land size is smaller, yet houses are larger thanks to multi storey vertical growth, culminating in high rise buildings.
In the same way, motor vehicles no longer grow horizontally in length & width like the traditional coupes - nowadays motor vehicles grow vertically in height for efficiency - called an SUV/CUV.
12-27-17, 06:25 PM
#86
The 4 series are compacts! Much less of a big personal luxury coupe than the C class which is also pretty small. The 6 series is a better size but at a lot more money.
12-27-17, 06:48 PM
#87
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
THAT's where the real problem is. What very few truly large luxury-coupes that are left (such as the Mercedes S-coupe) have become prohibitively expensive. The 6-series, of course, as you note, is not chump-change, either......and its days in the American market may (?) be numbered.
Last edited by mmarshall; 12-27-17 at 06:52 PM.
12-27-17, 06:50 PM
#88
Lexus Champion
You have to remember about affordability and consumer buying power. This thread started out as a lament about the Detroit coupes of the 1960s, 1970s or so. Those other cars which are being talked about are not in that category although they certainly are superior in many ways. The Thunderbird in the pics above likely went for about $5000 back in the day. Today's dollars make that about $33K or so.
Can you buy such a car like that T-bird or any coupe of the era with similar features and style for these kind of dollars? The Bimmers and Benzes are in the stratosphere with the pricing. You'll be into compact coupes for those dollars. It's about nostalgia obviously. About the old days but the world moves on.
Can you buy such a car like that T-bird or any coupe of the era with similar features and style for these kind of dollars? The Bimmers and Benzes are in the stratosphere with the pricing. You'll be into compact coupes for those dollars. It's about nostalgia obviously. About the old days but the world moves on.
12-27-17, 08:56 PM
#89
The 6 series is larger overall, but interior dimension wise there isn't much difference between them, at least from the drivers comfort perspective. Neither is as large as the S class coupe of course.
12-27-17, 09:19 PM
#90
To some extent, though, that was apples and oranges. The two-seater 2000 Thunderbird, like the original '55-57 which it tried to imitate, was actually more of a large roadster than a coupe. The type of Thunderbird I (and this thread) referring to are the 2-door, 4-seat models ones made from 1958 up till its demise in late 1997. Some, in the late 60s/early 70s, even had a four-door option in the classic Lincoln Continental suicide/front-opening rear style.....certainly not true coupes.