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Wow. Your post is a bit personal is it not? We don’t have an AWD Matrix. OP mentioned four wheel drive in thread titles and then went on about AWD. All of that needs to be cleared up. Full time all wheel drive is not overkill, it’s a premium one has to pay vs the on demand cross overs systems they use. Lever operated 4WD are even more superior as there is no electronic switch to fail. Only some 4Runners and Jeep Wranger offer it. I can’t think of any other manufacturer who still over that set up. Anyways. Good night to you!
Nothing personal. You drive 4Runners and a FWD Matrix. That's fine, I stand corrected. But unless a driver is in deep winter conditions then it's overkill.
Audi's Quattro system used to be full-time like Subaru's......though with less symmetry and somewhat more complexity. Recently, though, due to fuel-economy pressures (full-time AWD tends to use more fuel) they have gone essentially to a system more that of other manufacturers....power going to the front wheels, then torque-on-demand to the rear, through the center differential, only when the front tires start to slip.
I see what you mean that Audi has changed the AWD. Here is a description of Toyota full time 4WD:Exclusive to the 4Runner Limited, the full-time 4WD system uses a Torsen® center differential with locking feature and a three-mode, center console-mounted switch. The system uses a 40:60 torque split in most driving situations and alters that in response to slippage. If the front wheels are slipping while the vehicle is turning, the Torsen® differential changes the split to 30:70. If the rear wheels slip while the vehicle is turning, the differential changes to a 53:47 split.
As I remember it, here in Southern Ontario, the popularity of all-season tires arrived at about the same time as the almost wholesale switch to smaller, FWD cars. Before that, we drove larger, RWD cars on summer tires and religiously changed to snow tires (on the rear axle only) in November or December each year.
We also religiously took driver's education courses before trying for our drivers licence. We were taught to put on snow tires in the winter and -- if we still did not find enough traction -- to put more weight (bags of sand, salt or even kitty litter) in the trunk. FWD was only available on foreign invaders, such as the Honda Civic. 4WD (AWD was unheard of at the time) was only available for the serious off-roaders (and drivers who had no choice but to drive ahead of the snowplow) driving large pickup trucks.
We drove carefully and problems were few and far between.
I saw this article the other day and thought that it was appropriate to this discussion.
Will AWD keep me safe in the winter?
I'm an Australian in Canada on a work visa, and going to drive from Vancouver to Jasper, Alta., to go skiing. Although I've never driven on snow or ice before, I'm not worried because we're renting an SUV with all-wheel drive. But everyone here tells me I should be terrified. Should I be? – Henry, Vancouver
Nobody's ever applied the phrase "winter wonderland" to Canada's roads. Instead, from now until spring, we'll all winter worry every time we hit the highway.
But the real culprit isn't just Canada's weather – it's drivers, driving instructor Ian Law said.
"Ice, snow and bad weather do not cause vehicles to crash. Not even the dreaded black ice," said Law, president and chief instructor of ILR Car Control School, in an e-mail. "What causes crashes is what the driver does when they encounter these conditions."
If you're driving on ice and snow, experts say you should have winter tires (not all rental cars have them), make sure they have enough air (cold weather causes the air in tires to contract) and keep plenty of space from the car in front of you.
We asked Law and Michelin Canada driving expert Carl Nadeau to tell us what else you should know to stay safe on Canadian roads this winter.
AWD doesn't mean Amazing Winter Driving
All-wheel drive is marketed as a safety feature, but it can actually increase the danger on winter roads.
"We are being misled by the auto manufacturers who insist AWD is a safety feature – it does not give your tires more grip," Law said. "All it does is allow a vehicle to accelerate more efficiently on low-friction surfaces."
That keeps you from getting stuck, "but it can mask how slippery the road surface really is, tricking the driver into thinking there is more grip than there really is until they need to stop or steer," Law said. "Everyone needs to slow down – truckers, those with AWD – all drivers."
Check the weather reports
Make sure the road you're planning on taking is safe to drive on.
"Many drivers will drive the same route no matter the conditions because that is the road they always take," Law said. "If they are warning of squalls or bad conditions on a certain route, go another way."
And, if the roads are really bad, consider staying home.
"If you don't need to drive in bad weather, don't," Law said.
And, if you're new to Canadian winter driving, Law recommends taking a winter-driving course.
"[It's] not because I need the business, but because most of these skills need to be learned in a vehicle," Law said. "Then, these skills need to be practised over and over so the repetition becomes muscle memory instead of the action being a thought process. Just saying, 'Do this when you get in a skid,' doesn't work when panic sets in."
I see what you mean that Audi has changed the AWD. Here is a description of Toyota full time 4WD:Exclusive to the 4Runner Limited, the full-time 4WD system uses a Torsen® center differential with locking feature and a three-mode, center console-mounted switch. The system uses a 40:60 torque split in most driving situations and alters that in response to slippage. If the front wheels are slipping while the vehicle is turning, the Torsen® differential changes the split to 30:70. If the rear wheels slip while the vehicle is turning, the differential changes to a 53:47 split.
I always liked a Torsen diff myself (and, for that matter, most LSDs). But, on more and more AWD vehicles, they are being replaced by systems that regulate wheel-spin through individual ABS antilock hardware on each wheel, because it is lighter, takes up less space, and (presumably) is less expensive to produce. That's (probably) why you only see the Torsen unit only on the top-line 4Runner Limited instead of across the lineup.
I always liked a Torsen diff myself (and, for that matter, most LSDs). But, on more and more AWD vehicles, they are being replaced by systems that regulate wheel-spin through individual ABS antilock hardware on each wheel, because it is lighter, takes up less space, and (presumably) is less expensive to produce. That's (probably) why you only see the Torsen unit only on the top-line 4Runner Limited instead of across the lineup.
4Runner has all of the sensors on all trims. Toyota offers 2WD, 4WD, 4WD with a shift lever transfer, and full time. I think Toyota just offers it to be as appealing as possible to a lot buyers. And to keep costs done I guess.
As I remember it, here in Southern Ontario, the popularity of all-season tires arrived at about the same time as the almost wholesale switch to smaller, FWD cars. Before that, we drove larger, RWD cars on summer tires and religiously changed to snow tires (on the rear axle only) in November or December each year.
We also religiously took driver's education courses before trying for our drivers licence. We were taught to put on snow tires in the winter and -- if we still did not find enough traction -- to put more weight (bags of sand, salt or even kitty litter) in the trunk. FWD was only available on foreign invaders, such as the Honda Civic. 4WD (AWD was unheard of at the time) was only available for the serious off-roaders (and drivers who had no choice but to drive ahead of the snowplow) driving large pickup trucks.
We drove carefully and problems were few and far between.
I saw this article the other day and thought that it was appropriate to this discussion.
You don't need AWD/4WD if you have snow tires. However its a good idea not to drive when it snows, because there are too many brainless drivers on the road. And driving right after a snow storm isn't good either. I lost two tires on the highway today, by hitting a metal piece that was lifted by a snow plow from in-between concrete slabs. And I wasn't alone, there was another driver that lost one tire just before me.
You don't need AWD/4WD if you have snow tires. However its a good idea not to drive when it snows, because there are too many brainless drivers on the road. And driving right after a snow storm isn't good either. I lost two tires on the highway today, by hitting a metal piece that was lifted by a snow plow from in-between concrete slabs. And I wasn't alone, there was another driver that lost one tire just before me.
Sorry to hear that. Hope your insurance covers it....depending on the deductible. In fact, you might (?), depending on city/state law, be able to make a claim against the city for it, and not have to use your insurance.
It's been some time since I've been to NYC, but, the last time I was there, it was one of the few places I've seen outside the Great Lakes Snow Belt where I thought the streets were as bad or worse than downtown D.C.
Sorry to hear that. Hope your insurance covers it....depending on the deductible. In fact, you might (?), depending on city/state law, be able to make a claim against the city for it, and not have to use your insurance.
It's been some time since I've been to NYC, but, the last time I was there, it was one of the few places I've seen outside the Great Lakes Snow Belt where I thought the streets were as bad or worse than downtown D.C.
My daughter is actually going to school in VA, and stays in Reston, so we drive there once a while. Driving through DC area, and MD in general is just a nightmare. I've never encountered so many stupid drivers anywhere else.
Are you afraid? When it snows and cold you just try to stay home?, LOL! In olden days it snowed lot and many days it was very cold up here. Lately I haven't started a snow thrower in years. This year we got old
winter back due to polar vortex. We just came out of deep cold and snow as of New Years day. When my kids were small often they had snow day which means school is off. Once my wife drove them to school driving 1 ton 4x4 van. At the school there was no one outside coming/going. When she turned the radio on they were announcing snow day.... The van was used to tow our camping trailer not a daily driver.
Personally I believe in climate change. I can grow apple trees now, rose bushes survive winter, Grape vine lived 3 years almost made it once. Start seeing lot of bugs we never seen before.
Snow just really ruins everything. It will rust out your car like no other. It doesn't matter how good you are or what kind of car you have; black ice kills more people than any other natural disaster. Just not worth it.
My daughter is actually going to school in VA, and stays in Reston, so we drive there once a while. Driving through DC area, and MD in general is just a nightmare. I've never encountered so many stupid drivers anywhere else.
I was taking about the physical condition of the roads in DC/NY, not the amount of traffic. But, yes, traffic is awful in or anywhere near D.C....arguably the second-worst in the country, outside of Los Angeles. NYC has the advantage of an enormous (and reliable) subway system and a much more widespread cab and bus system than we do. That keep a lot of New Yorkers out of private cars.
As far as dumb drivers go, every place probably has its share of them. As to the worst, one could probably draw straws...in general, the worst I've seen are on the D.C. Beltway, the New Jersey Turnpike, and in some parts of Ohio. West Virginia, at least from what I've seen, takes the cake for a lot of old, poorly-maintained vehicles (if they run at all) that can be hazard, especially on the many mountain roads, even if the drivers themselves aren't.
The problem here is that your customers may be misinformed about what conditions they are traveling in, and what tires they need for these conditions. FWD with snows is going to be fine and I'm sure you recommend that as the starter choice. If they don't want that then you probably move over to RAV as you say.
I get what you're saying, but the internet is full of videos, and online there are all sorts anecdotal stories about RWD cars just blasting through the stuff with no context to them. I just see your video comparing an Explorer and a Vic doing loops on basically cleared surfaces that pose no real challenge. Just everyday driving in the spring or late fall for me.
Respectfully, if you want to know what deep winter in a winter zone city is about just bring that Vic up to Canada and I'll promptly get it stuck on a side street for you no problem
yes it doesn't really matter what you're in on a flat paved parking lot, but there was a bunch of other considerably deeper things it went through. believe me that's not what i meant when i say it really impressed me lol
Snow just really ruins everything. It will rust out your car like no other. It doesn't matter how good you are or what kind of car you have; black ice kills more people than any other natural disaster. Just not worth it.
Up here we don't use salt on the road in winter. They use coarse sand, many chipped windshild, LOL! We are used to blizzard, black ice things like that. Still there are fools on the winter road think their Jeep is invincible. I'd rather choose snow than rain. I hate weather in places like Vancouver or Seattle. We have blankets, candles in the car when winter comes. I have to drive out to our 4 season cabin on the foothills.
So far, never had any troubles encountered. Now more and more OEM tires becoming run flat type which I don't like. They give hard ride, cost more to replace.
Which is why I said people who use the term 4WD and AWD need to be corrected. I actually think the RAV4 is not in fact AWD but it’s On Demand 4WD. So perhaps my AWD comment was actually wrong.
fair point, i didn't mean to use the two interchangeably. i just meant a (usually) larger than small sedan type of vehicle that can send power (of some sort) to all 4 wheels. sorry should've been more clear about that
Driving in the snow is best avoided, but of course thats a bit impossible sometimes. The most common issue with snow driving is what lies behind the steering wheel aka driver as I have seen beast of machines like G wagons and Range Rovers stuck in snow banks while lowly fwd civics move along merrily. If the driver understands the limits of what their vehicle can do, and what is logical then you have got maybe 50% of winter driving down. The rest is luck and how the environment around you aka drivers around are doing.
From their on its a mechanical game. Do you have snow tires, that too a full set with good compound left?
AWD, 4WD is all basically left to chance.
4WD systems are simple, power always on in some kind of split and manual overides/switches (4lo high 2wd). These things were modernized with sensors to limit wheel spin etc, but basically zero reaction times.
AWD systems which operate with a traction computer and sensor data. System auto detects traction levels from sensors, then responds with a command. Usually FWD, and thats where the problem a lot of users (more so 4WD purists) have with these systems. Lets say your front left tire has lost traction, the sensor has to detect that event, computer process, and then issue a command to apply brakes/cut or reroute power. Takes a while when miliseconds can make a difference. Some systems have tremendously cut down processing times by integrating units to cut down on travel lengths (i3s traction system) and some systems just sit there waiting and playing the lets see which tires provides forward movement (Recent example was the 16 highlander test with TFLCar). Then there are systems which do more then just axle to axle, they down individual wheel to wheel (SH-AWD and newer BMW and Audi systems). With systems going from multiple computers to integrated drive modules AWD is going to be the standard and probably start eating away at mainstream 4WD outliers.
01-05-18, 06:21 PM
