All wheel drive, four-wheel drive, is it really necessary?
01-07-18, 05:39 PM
#106
RWD with open differential? I don't think so. IMO, AWD vehicle with winter tires will give better safety margin. But most of all, it all depends on driver skill and terrain. Remember when ABS first showed up pro drivers hated it. I did not like ABS on my tow truck pulling more than 3 ton weight camping trailer. Even monkeys fall from tree some times.
01-07-18, 05:40 PM
#107
Lexus Fanatic
One good thing, though, that DID come from ABS, was that the basic ABS sensor system made electronic traction-aids and stability systems possible. Stability systems have prevented a lot of accidents....especially among classic oversteer/spin-out cars like the Porsche 911. The ABS sensors, in some cases also help some AWD systems by insuring that certain wheels don't spin.
Last edited by mmarshall; 01-07-18 at 05:45 PM.
01-07-18, 05:44 PM
#108
Lexus Fanatic
I still don't particularly like ABS, either. True, it helps keep the tires rolling instead of locking up and sliding, which gives you steering control (assuming the tires themselves still have any grip)...but, IMO, it seems like the stopping distances themselves are longer.
01-07-18, 05:51 PM
#109
Lexus Fanatic
Perhaps. I haven't gone out and actually measured them, myself. On several of the vehicles I've owned with ABS, it felt, even with the wheels still rolling, like the car was simply taking forever to stop on really slick stuff, whereas standard brakes often locked the wheels but felt like they stopped shorter. Maybe some of it is just mental, or perceived. Either way, with or without them, I give the car in front of me PLENTY of room.....only idiots tailgate on slick surfaces.
01-07-18, 05:59 PM
#110
Lexus Fanatic
On really slick stuff thats one thing, but in general ABS absolutely shortens stopping distances.
01-07-18, 06:00 PM
#111
Lexus Fanatic
Perhaps. I haven't gone out and actually measured them, myself. On several of the vehicles I've owned with ABS, it felt, even with the wheels still rolling, like the car was simply taking forever to stop on really slick stuff, whereas standard brakes often locked the wheels but felt like they stopped shorter. Maybe some of it is just mental, or perceived. Either way, with or without them, I give the car in front of me PLENTY of room.....only idiots tailgate on slick surfaces.
How often do the ABS on your cars engage?
01-07-18, 06:03 PM
#112
Lexus Fanatic
Remember too, ABS was not designed to shorten stopping distances. The point is to prevent wheel lockup so you can maintain steering control of the vehicle.
01-07-18, 06:16 PM
#113
Lexus Fanatic
Wiki, BTW, agrees with me on needing more space to stop with ABS on snow and ice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system
however, on loose gravel or snow-covered surfaces, ABS can significantly increase braking distance, although still improving vehicle steering control.[2]
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01-07-18, 08:03 PM
#114
Lexus Fanatic
Again, having owned similar cars in RWD, FWD and AWD, there is no question that AWD is the superior powertrain layout when it comes to traction and drivability in snow and ice. No question whatsoever.
Yes tires are really important, but if you standardize tires, again the AWD is going to stand out as superior. My experience comes from cars driven on very similar all season tires, my AWD GS and LS are very drivable on all season grand touring tires in the snow, my RWD LS sedans were not at all, and my FWD ES sedans were in between the two. I'm sure my incoming RWD LS460L will be significantly poorer in the snow than my outgoing AWD LS460.
If I put winter tires on my RWD LS460L, I'm sure it would be just as drivable as my AWD LS460 on all seasons or moreso, but as I've said my climate doesn't lend itself to that being worthwhile, and if you put the same winter tires on the AWD LS460, it would handle better than the RWD LS460.
Yes tires are really important, but if you standardize tires, again the AWD is going to stand out as superior. My experience comes from cars driven on very similar all season tires, my AWD GS and LS are very drivable on all season grand touring tires in the snow, my RWD LS sedans were not at all, and my FWD ES sedans were in between the two. I'm sure my incoming RWD LS460L will be significantly poorer in the snow than my outgoing AWD LS460.
If I put winter tires on my RWD LS460L, I'm sure it would be just as drivable as my AWD LS460 on all seasons or moreso, but as I've said my climate doesn't lend itself to that being worthwhile, and if you put the same winter tires on the AWD LS460, it would handle better than the RWD LS460.
01-07-18, 08:14 PM
#115
Lexus Fanatic
Yeah I’m sure I’ll be fine. Going to put a set of the Pirelli P7s on there.
01-07-18, 08:17 PM
#116
With snow tires it is very important to make sure that they aren't worn out. Modern tires (not only snow, but performance and even all season tires) wear out very quickly. For instance I had Firestone Winterfoce 16" tires that I bought for my Lexus back in 2009, and when my Lexus was destroyed by Sandy I put them on my Mazda 3 that I had, they lasted until 2015 and still had good amount of thread on them. I disposed them because I no longer had a vehicle that they would fit. My X1 also had 17" Winterforce tires, and they lasted for 3 years with almost no noticeable wear. They were also extremely durable, hitting many potholes without damage. Unfortunately they are not available in all sizes, and I couldn't get them for my m235i, and got Blizzak WS80 instead. They barely lasted two seasons before rear tires were worn out.
01-07-18, 08:27 PM
#117
Lexus Champion
Now there is new breed of tires called "all weather tire". I heard some of it's brand does very good in the winter.
01-08-18, 05:31 AM
#119
Lexus Fanatic
I still don't particularly like ABS, either. True, it helps keep the tires rolling instead of locking up and sliding, which gives you steering control (assuming the tires themselves still have any grip)...but, IMO, it seems like the stopping distances themselves are longer.
One good thing, though, that DID come from ABS, was that the basic ABS sensor system made electronic traction-aids and stability systems possible. Stability systems have prevented a lot of accidents....especially among classic oversteer/spin-out cars like the Porsche 911. The ABS sensors, in some cases also help some AWD systems by insuring that certain wheels don't spin.
One good thing, though, that DID come from ABS, was that the basic ABS sensor system made electronic traction-aids and stability systems possible. Stability systems have prevented a lot of accidents....especially among classic oversteer/spin-out cars like the Porsche 911. The ABS sensors, in some cases also help some AWD systems by insuring that certain wheels don't spin.
When I did the Porsche event with professional drivers, they stated you are free to push any button you like in the vehicles. The one button you are not allowed to touch is the one for PSM. If you press this button, the entire event will be shut down, and you can explain to the other 15 participants why the event is shut down for the day.
I have taken the DSC off one level on my 335, to make sure I could do it (say I were stuck in snow etc.). But I took it seriously, I did not take it off completely (idiots on the forum have wrecked their cars, we can all laugh as much as we want since it's not our car, but there has to be a reason it occured). When stuck I pressed snow on the LS430, and as I had suspected, it seemed to be useless.
01-08-18, 05:35 AM
#120
Lexus Fanatic
do they get a snowflake and M+S designation on the sidewall? Sounds like a gimmick to me. Wonder if they are allowed in Germany and Québec during the winter.