reliability - how do you define it, and how important?
02-09-18, 03:47 PM
#46
Lexus Champion
I would say that if major components of a car cannot get through the warranty without breaking or ending up at the dealership, then that can be thought of as unreliable. The reasons the Germans get the "unreliable" rap isn't necessarily just because of a few isolated instances but rather some common glitches that even garden variety cars ironed out long ago.
So things like HPFP, or electric waterpumps made out of plastic that fail because a wire that provides power to them sits right under a seal that leaks prematurely and that in turn shorts out the circuit: that's unreliable due to bad design/materials.
The other thing to me is that, sudden surprises that come out of nowhere with no real warning makes for an unreliable and untrustworthy vehicle. The Japanese engineered that unpredictability out of their cars a long, long time ago. Any Japanese car will warn you of problems long before there is an actual failure on the side of the road. Generally, this is the reason you see older Japanese vehicles still on the road. The Japanese engineers got rid of the unpredictability a long time ago.
So things like HPFP, or electric waterpumps made out of plastic that fail because a wire that provides power to them sits right under a seal that leaks prematurely and that in turn shorts out the circuit: that's unreliable due to bad design/materials.
The other thing to me is that, sudden surprises that come out of nowhere with no real warning makes for an unreliable and untrustworthy vehicle. The Japanese engineered that unpredictability out of their cars a long, long time ago. Any Japanese car will warn you of problems long before there is an actual failure on the side of the road. Generally, this is the reason you see older Japanese vehicles still on the road. The Japanese engineers got rid of the unpredictability a long time ago.
02-09-18, 04:28 PM
#47
Lexus Fanatic
For me reliability means never letting you down for the first 120-150k or minimum 12-15 years of ownership. Never not starting and never breaking down and leaving you stranded, this is my definition of reliability. Toyota has been good to me for 30 years.
For me quality means how good things are inside or outside the car. Not necessarily correlated with reliability. IMO, Toyota and Lexus have never been the #1 in quality but they are pretty good.
For me quality means how good things are inside or outside the car. Not necessarily correlated with reliability. IMO, Toyota and Lexus have never been the #1 in quality but they are pretty good.
02-09-18, 04:35 PM
#48
Lexus Fanatic
How old is that 4Runner in your family that recently broke down?
From what I remember, it was either the transmission or transfer case.
02-09-18, 04:40 PM
#49
Lexus Fanatic
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 02-11-18 at 08:20 AM.
02-11-18, 08:17 AM
#50
Lexus Fanatic
Interesting question.
Being somebody who drives new cars and hasn't owned a car out of warranty since 2011 when we traded my wife's Prius on our first Grand Cherokee, for me its not having to go back and forth to the dealership to deal with any sort of repairs or issues. For instance my 2011 Grand Cherokee always ran and rove, but it was plagued with lots of little issues meaning whenever it went to the dealer there was always a laundry list of stuff that needed to be fixed, I would consider that car unreliable. My 2014 Jeep was great, but we only had it a year.
Every car has a little thing here or there, but multiple issues is an issue.
Really any car as long as its maintained will reliably start and run and drive for 100k miles nowadays.
Its funny, even as young as I am its interesting how much more reliable cars are nowadays. When I was a kid and we would go down to WV to visit my family and grandmother we would have breakdowns. I remember our 87 Ford Aerostar and sitting on my moms lap in the back I n the middle of the night while my dad and some guy at a gas station off of Rt 60 put a new coolant line on the van and filled it up with coolant after it overheated. That same Aerostar also fired spark plugs out of the block two separate times making that trip on highway upgrades. I remember riding along on the shoulder with the rhythmic rifle popping sound as we limped to an exit to have it fixed. Roadside fix and we were on our way. That van wasn't old either, maybe 2-3 years old at that point? With the coolant even younger than that because I was young enough to sit on my moms lap, and in 1987 when we got it I would have been 6.
Our 95 Explorer would struggle in the mountains on that trip and throw check engine lights with the elevation changes. That was when it was pretty young too.
Nowadays I drive on those same roads with the cruise set at 80 and never even consider that I might have a breakdown.
Being somebody who drives new cars and hasn't owned a car out of warranty since 2011 when we traded my wife's Prius on our first Grand Cherokee, for me its not having to go back and forth to the dealership to deal with any sort of repairs or issues. For instance my 2011 Grand Cherokee always ran and rove, but it was plagued with lots of little issues meaning whenever it went to the dealer there was always a laundry list of stuff that needed to be fixed, I would consider that car unreliable. My 2014 Jeep was great, but we only had it a year.
Every car has a little thing here or there, but multiple issues is an issue.
Really any car as long as its maintained will reliably start and run and drive for 100k miles nowadays.
Its funny, even as young as I am its interesting how much more reliable cars are nowadays. When I was a kid and we would go down to WV to visit my family and grandmother we would have breakdowns. I remember our 87 Ford Aerostar and sitting on my moms lap in the back I n the middle of the night while my dad and some guy at a gas station off of Rt 60 put a new coolant line on the van and filled it up with coolant after it overheated. That same Aerostar also fired spark plugs out of the block two separate times making that trip on highway upgrades. I remember riding along on the shoulder with the rhythmic rifle popping sound as we limped to an exit to have it fixed. Roadside fix and we were on our way. That van wasn't old either, maybe 2-3 years old at that point? With the coolant even younger than that because I was young enough to sit on my moms lap, and in 1987 when we got it I would have been 6.
Our 95 Explorer would struggle in the mountains on that trip and throw check engine lights with the elevation changes. That was when it was pretty young too.
Nowadays I drive on those same roads with the cruise set at 80 and never even consider that I might have a breakdown.
02-11-18, 08:27 AM
#51
Lexus Fanatic
Interesting question.
Being somebody who drives new cars and hasn't owned a car out of warranty since 2011 when we traded my wife's Prius on our first Grand Cherokee, for me its not having to go back and forth to the dealership to deal with any sort of repairs or issues. For instance my 2011 Grand Cherokee always ran and rove, but it was plagued with lots of little issues meaning whenever it went to the dealer there was always a laundry list of stuff that needed to be fixed, I would consider that car unreliable. My 2014 Jeep was great, but we only had it a year.
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Being somebody who drives new cars and hasn't owned a car out of warranty since 2011 when we traded my wife's Prius on our first Grand Cherokee, for me its not having to go back and forth to the dealership to deal with any sort of repairs or issues. For instance my 2011 Grand Cherokee always ran and rove, but it was plagued with lots of little issues meaning whenever it went to the dealer there was always a laundry list of stuff that needed to be fixed, I would consider that car unreliable. My 2014 Jeep was great, but we only had it a year.
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Now, the biggest difference between then and now are that the Toyota designs are on par with what Ford and GM were offering in the 80s. Ford and GM always IMO has better designs, more options, more features etc etc. But their greed started to kick in.
If I were leasing or buying for short term, I would likely never buy a Toyota or Lexus. Lots of other stuff out there. But where I find Toyota’s make it worthwhile is in the years past 8 or 9 and up to year 15 and beyond.
02-11-18, 08:34 AM
#52
Lexus Fanatic
Issue is when they're like my 2011 Jeep, its really annoying. It was extra annoying with the Jeep because Jeep/Chrysler only gives you a loaner car if you purchase an extended warranty, which we didn't do because it was a lease. So...all of these warranty issues...no loaner...even if it took multiple days which it did sometimes. That was a huge issue as we had to carpool which is a big problem since I'm in sales and my schedule is unpredictable and unusual.
That was one of my big worries about the Pacifica. If it winds up being like the 2011 Jeep we're going to have a really hard time since my wife depends on it to drive the twins around.
I was worried about that when I was thinking about the Range Rover too, but at least there I would have a loaner.
That was one of my big worries about the Pacifica. If it winds up being like the 2011 Jeep we're going to have a really hard time since my wife depends on it to drive the twins around.
I was worried about that when I was thinking about the Range Rover too, but at least there I would have a loaner.
02-11-18, 08:39 AM
#53
Lexus Fanatic
Issue is when they're like my 2011 Jeep, its really annoying. It was extra annoying with the Jeep because Jeep/Chrysler only gives you a loaner car if you purchase an extended warranty, which we didn't do because it was a lease. So...all of these warranty issues...no loaner...even if it took multiple days which it did sometimes. That was a huge issue as we had to carpool which is a big problem since I'm in sales and my schedule is unpredictable and unusual.
That was one of my big worries about the Pacifica. If it winds up being like the 2011 Jeep we're going to have a really hard time since my wife depends on it to drive the twins around.
I was worried about that when I was thinking about the Range Rover too, but at least there I would have a loaner.
That was one of my big worries about the Pacifica. If it winds up being like the 2011 Jeep we're going to have a really hard time since my wife depends on it to drive the twins around.
I was worried about that when I was thinking about the Range Rover too, but at least there I would have a loaner.
02-11-18, 08:43 AM
#54
Lexus Fanatic
^^^. This is just it. Evidence would suggest a new Pacifica will not last as long as a new Sienna or Odysssey. Same thing with the Range Rover. My brother is on his second Sienna, his became difficult to keep going around the 200K mark. My other brother had given up on his Hyundai van around 115K.
02-11-18, 09:37 AM
#55
I seperate reliability from durability. A car could be very durable and not require any major repairs for 100,000 miles and still not be very reliable. My definition of reliable is that everything about the car works every time. That is not just starting each time, but having the radio, climate control, navi, etc work properly. A lot of my driving is across desert areas which may not have cell phone coverage. It is critical that the car get me to my destination and that the air conditioner work. Although I normally lease, I would not live with a car that required constant visits to the dealer to keep everything working. I don't keep my cars very long, so I don't care about what happens after about 50,000 miles.
02-11-18, 02:31 PM
#56
"regular maintenance. No surprises." that sums it up.
I have been very fortunate with my cars - i have had two cars over the past 20 years ( 98 Altima and 06 IS250) and both have gotten me into the 100k mile range with no trouble. I expect my next car give me similar reliability.
I have been very fortunate with my cars - i have had two cars over the past 20 years ( 98 Altima and 06 IS250) and both have gotten me into the 100k mile range with no trouble. I expect my next car give me similar reliability.
02-11-18, 07:07 PM
#57
I would say that if major components of a car cannot get through the warranty without breaking or ending up at the dealership, then that can be thought of as unreliable. The reasons the Germans get the "unreliable" rap isn't necessarily just because of a few isolated instances but rather some common glitches that even garden variety cars ironed out long ago.
So things like HPFP, or electric waterpumps made out of plastic that fail because a wire that provides power to them sits right under a seal that leaks prematurely and that in turn shorts out the circuit: that's unreliable due to bad design/materials.
The other thing to me is that, sudden surprises that come out of nowhere with no real warning makes for an unreliable and untrustworthy vehicle. The Japanese engineered that unpredictability out of their cars a long, long time ago. Any Japanese car will warn you of problems long before there is an actual failure on the side of the road. Generally, this is the reason you see older Japanese vehicles still on the road. The Japanese engineers got rid of the unpredictability a long time ago.
So things like HPFP, or electric waterpumps made out of plastic that fail because a wire that provides power to them sits right under a seal that leaks prematurely and that in turn shorts out the circuit: that's unreliable due to bad design/materials.
The other thing to me is that, sudden surprises that come out of nowhere with no real warning makes for an unreliable and untrustworthy vehicle. The Japanese engineered that unpredictability out of their cars a long, long time ago. Any Japanese car will warn you of problems long before there is an actual failure on the side of the road. Generally, this is the reason you see older Japanese vehicles still on the road. The Japanese engineers got rid of the unpredictability a long time ago.
Picked up a CPO BMW 650i Gran Coupe. Absolutely beautiful car for me. Luxury, comfort, class, power etc. It hit all the buttons for me. The BMW dealership I went to always provided excellent service, except that I spent too much time visiting them for warranty repairs.
In the year and a half I owned the car, I visited the dealership 4 times for repairs.
1. Drive train malfunction - replaced 2 spark plugs, 2 fuel injectors, and 1 mass airflow sensor (one week)
2. Drive train malfunction - replaced high pressure fuel pump and various, cracked and leaking air intake vacuum lines. (two weeks)
3. Check engine light - replaced cracked and leaking turbo lines (one day)
4. Door lock malfunction - replaced door lock actuator (one day)
When you peruse the BMW 6 series forum, there is a thread in there "Drive train malfunction" that has hundreds of posts.
Did I like the car, yes, so much so that I wanted to think of a logical reason to keep it. Did not find one so I ditched it with one year left on the warranty as they drop like a rock in price once the warranty runs out.
This is what I consider an unreliable car.
02-11-18, 10:06 PM
#58
Hit the nail right on the head in regards to my BMW experience.
Picked up a CPO BMW 650i Gran Coupe. Absolutely beautiful car for me. Luxury, comfort, class, power etc. It hit all the buttons for me. The BMW dealership I went to always provided excellent service, except that I spent too much time visiting them for warranty repairs.
In the year and a half I owned the car, I visited the dealership 4 times for repairs.
1. Drive train malfunction - replaced 2 spark plugs, 2 fuel injectors, and 1 mass airflow sensor (one week)
2. Drive train malfunction - replaced high pressure fuel pump and various, cracked and leaking air intake vacuum lines. (two weeks)
3. Check engine light - replaced cracked and leaking turbo lines (one day)
4. Door lock malfunction - replaced door lock actuator (one day)
When you peruse the BMW 6 series forum, there is a thread in there "Drive train malfunction" that has hundreds of posts.
Did I like the car, yes, so much so that I wanted to think of a logical reason to keep it. Did not find one so I ditched it with one year left on the warranty as they drop like a rock in price once the warranty runs out.
This is what I consider an unreliable car.
Picked up a CPO BMW 650i Gran Coupe. Absolutely beautiful car for me. Luxury, comfort, class, power etc. It hit all the buttons for me. The BMW dealership I went to always provided excellent service, except that I spent too much time visiting them for warranty repairs.
In the year and a half I owned the car, I visited the dealership 4 times for repairs.
1. Drive train malfunction - replaced 2 spark plugs, 2 fuel injectors, and 1 mass airflow sensor (one week)
2. Drive train malfunction - replaced high pressure fuel pump and various, cracked and leaking air intake vacuum lines. (two weeks)
3. Check engine light - replaced cracked and leaking turbo lines (one day)
4. Door lock malfunction - replaced door lock actuator (one day)
When you peruse the BMW 6 series forum, there is a thread in there "Drive train malfunction" that has hundreds of posts.
Did I like the car, yes, so much so that I wanted to think of a logical reason to keep it. Did not find one so I ditched it with one year left on the warranty as they drop like a rock in price once the warranty runs out.
This is what I consider an unreliable car.
Yet they fill their cars with **** *** parts and components, designed down to the last penny. Yet their cars are extremely complex, so they are filled with all kinds of cheap *** **** components that are a possible source of failure and leave your car with reduced performance or undrivable. I mean lets make a list of **** that broke on your I assume 1 to 3 year old BMW:
2 fuel injectors
1 mass airflow sensor
1 fuel pump
Various vacume lines. On BMW's these are cheap *** plastic crap that breaks after 1-3 years. They use cheap *** plastic that doesn't hold up over a few years worth of cold/hot cycles on your engine.
Cracked and leaking turbo lines, I bet its more ****ty *** plastic stuff that went brittle and broke
Door lock actuator. 26 years later on my 1992 Lexus, all the locks work fine. Family's 2000 Avalon with 270,000 miles on it, all the locks, trunk release and keyless entry work like new. Locks still feel tight where you insert the key.
02-11-18, 10:21 PM
#59
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (20)
We have had some American cars along the way and we saw the difference. Watched my parents and their neighbors all thought the 80s and 90s struggle with GM and they finally joined the Toyota movement.
If I were leasing or buying for short term, I would likely never buy a Toyota or Lexus. Lots of other stuff out there. But where I find Toyota’s make it worthwhile is in the years past 8 or 9 and up to year 15 and beyond.
i think that as time goes on it becomes riskier and riskier to have a car for 15 years because of the growing complexity.
02-11-18, 10:27 PM
#60
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (20)
my uncle and his wife who live in mississauga have a chrysler town and country minivan that's got to be a dozen years old at least. it's loud to me but besides that it just keeps going. they had a brake system problem on one huge road trip and a service place ripped them off but they filed a complaint with chrysler who sent them a gift card to cover most of the repair.
they were thinking about getting another minivan but ended up keeping it because it still runs fine, and they added a kia soul, which they LOVE.