Toyota Dropping Diesel Cars in Europe at the End of 2018
03-10-18, 06:10 AM
#16
Lexus Champion
And that's why consumers are willing to pay extra here in NA. Not because you wanted to get better fuel economy compared to a diesel, but because you had no diesel option available on that car due to stricter emissions standards. It's also one reason why Lexus doesn't sell well in its larger sedans in Europe due to the fact that... no diesel options.
Buying the diesel makes more sense in Europe due to the higher fuel prices. There is no premium attached to buying a diesel in Europe, that's the norm until you come to bans/phase out. In NA, there was/is a diesel premium, for cars. That was and is due to stricter emissions standards. Does Europe subsidize diesels like NA subsidizes hybrids?
Buying the diesel makes more sense in Europe due to the higher fuel prices. There is no premium attached to buying a diesel in Europe, that's the norm until you come to bans/phase out. In NA, there was/is a diesel premium, for cars. That was and is due to stricter emissions standards. Does Europe subsidize diesels like NA subsidizes hybrids?
03-10-18, 06:42 AM
#17
Lexus Fanatic
My question is why the double standard regarding payback when you pay a premium to get better fuel economy? It seems that every discussion about hybrids starts with "you will never get your money back buying a hybrid (unless gasoline prices go sky-high)", yet that argument is never used when it comes to diesels.
Unlike gas, though, diesel-fuel prices in Europe were subsidized for years.
03-10-18, 10:17 AM
#18
Lexus Fanatic
It isn't so much about an investment because most vehicles are depreciating assets from the day you drive one off the lot, it's the thousands extra you pay for the tech vs just simply paying the price for gasoline/diesel and the improvements that those engines have made over the years. It takes a long time to recoup a hybrid's premium and it often even requires state and federal subsidies to do it.
Looks like Toyota has changed that a bit with their new hybrid tech.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 03-10-18 at 10:34 AM.
03-10-18, 12:29 PM
#19
Super Moderator
My question is why the double standard regarding payback when you pay a premium to get better fuel economy? It seems that every discussion about hybrids starts with "you will never get your money back buying a hybrid (unless gasoline prices go sky-high)", yet that argument is never used when it comes to diesels.
I've had it for 5.5 years, so I'm WAY ahead at this point.
03-10-18, 12:49 PM
#20
My issue with Toyota hybrid and Lexus hybrid is that you get less vehicle performance than the equivalent gas model in some cases. The ESh lacks dual vvti and takes a HP penalty and performance hit compared to the V6, and you must pay more. Makes no sense. I learned with my CT was that I was getting $20K performance for $40K at the time. Furthermore, why does Lexus not offer the plug-in tech that they already have on the Prius Prime? LC500h and ESh should absolutely have a plug-in feature.
Looks like Toyota has changed that a bit with their new hybrid tech.
Looks like Toyota has changed that a bit with their new hybrid tech.
VALVETRAIN
Dual cam, four valves per cylinder, with continuously Variable Valve Timing with intelligence (VVT-i)
http://www.lexus.com/models/ES-hybrid/specifications
Dual cam, four valves per cylinder, with continuously Variable Valve Timing with intelligence (VVT-i)
http://www.lexus.com/models/ES-hybrid/specifications
Performance hit?? The ESh pairs its LHD with a 2.5L I4 with 156hp + electric motor for combined output of 200 total system power. Of course there's a performance disparity vs the V6. If Lexus went the RX/RXh route with the ES, then you'd have a 295hp V6 ES and a 308 total system power ESh,--
That'd of really only applied to the CT. They'd need bigger battery packs and reworkings to implement PHEV on those two vehicles. The year 2020 is shaping to be the year of Solid State Batteries which Toyota and the lot are working feverishly on right now.
03-10-18, 01:05 PM
#21
Lexus Fanatic
The ESh removes the dual part of VVTi and only comes with single vvti.
The 2.5 in the ESh is a detuned version. Its down on power.
Do you see what I mean now? CT did the same thing.
2. Performance hit?? The ESh pairs its LHD with a 2.5L I4 with 156hp + electric motor for combined output of 200 total system power. Of course there's a performance disparity vs the V6. If Lexus went the RX/RXh route with the ES, then you'd have a 295hp V6 ES and a 308 total system power ESh,
Performance hit?? The ESh pairs its LHD with a 2.5L I4 with 156hp + electric motor for combined output of 200 total system power. Of course there's a performance disparity vs the V6. If Lexus went the RX/RXh route with the ES, then you'd have a 295hp V6 ES and a 308 total system power ESh,Do you see what I mean now? CT did the same thing.
03-10-18, 02:26 PM
#22
Not just the CT. All Lexus hybrids. The LS600hL with it's IS F derived 2UR-GSE 5.0L V8 was detuned to 394hp LHD for a total of 438 total system power. The V6's on the GSh and LCh/LSh are also not the full 311hp found on the standard ICE GS350.
03-10-18, 06:33 PM
#23
Lexus Champion
The Atkinson cycle is less powerful than the Otto cycle but it is more efficient (less fuel consumption).
The lower torque at low rpm of the Atkinson cycle is compensated for by the torque-heavy electric motor.
The best -- most efficient -- hybrid powertrains combine the internal combustion engine with an electric motor in such a way that the shortcomings of one are compensated for by the other. The low torque at low rpm of the ICE is compensated for by the electric motor which has a lot of torque at low rpm; and when the electric runs out of steam at high rpm, the ICE is at its most efficient and most powerful.
Most Toyota and Lexus hybrid vehicles operate in this fashion. Yes, the gasoline engines run on the less powerful -- but more efficient -- Atkinson cycle, but compensated for by the torque-heavy electric motor. These hybrid vehicles are tuned to maximize fuel economy.
03-10-18, 06:48 PM
#24
Lexus Champion
It's about the up front cost-premium of one type of tech vs the other. Diesels on cars like Jetta, Golf and Passat were certainly not cheap to buy over their gasoline counterparts. We're having an apples to oranges to tangerines discussion. Because no one tech fits every driver and their locale.
Sulu's ESh for eg. has a premium associated with it, at least $4K. How to recover that cost and in how many years? It's about what type of driving you do and now much maintenance you would like to have on a car. Diesels were really expensive to option on the Germans and you had to think about why you wanted to pay that price.
The reason people didn't ask why this idea of "is it really worth it vs..." question may or may not be asked is that diesels tend to be the more option rich vehicle.
Until recently you could get a manual transmission diesel, or a dsg/dct or you could get the diesel in a Golf hatchback and a Jetta or even a Passat. You couldn't do that in any NA market Toyota sedan. You wanted driving performance and fun with a diesel, you went diesel VW. You want simple commuter with luxury? You go hybrid in all its various forms with Toyota/Lexus.
Hybrids are for city driving where they do very well with mileage. Diesels do quite well on the freeway and the highway, where a hybrid does not always have regenartive braking and the idle stop/ICE turn off feature unless you're in a heavily clogged traffic zone. As to which will be better in the long run, that depends on how long you plan on keeping the vehicle.
Sulu's ESh for eg. has a premium associated with it, at least $4K. How to recover that cost and in how many years? It's about what type of driving you do and now much maintenance you would like to have on a car. Diesels were really expensive to option on the Germans and you had to think about why you wanted to pay that price.
The reason people didn't ask why this idea of "is it really worth it vs..." question may or may not be asked is that diesels tend to be the more option rich vehicle.
Until recently you could get a manual transmission diesel, or a dsg/dct or you could get the diesel in a Golf hatchback and a Jetta or even a Passat. You couldn't do that in any NA market Toyota sedan. You wanted driving performance and fun with a diesel, you went diesel VW. You want simple commuter with luxury? You go hybrid in all its various forms with Toyota/Lexus.
Hybrids are for city driving where they do very well with mileage. Diesels do quite well on the freeway and the highway, where a hybrid does not always have regenartive braking and the idle stop/ICE turn off feature unless you're in a heavily clogged traffic zone. As to which will be better in the long run, that depends on how long you plan on keeping the vehicle.
Last edited by MattyG; 03-10-18 at 06:51 PM.
03-10-18, 07:10 PM
#26
Lexus Champion
Without knowing, I would conclude that you are comparing an apple with an orange and saying that one is better than the other.
03-10-18, 07:33 PM
#27
Lexus Champion
Torque. It's your friend. A hybrid runs out of it quickly when it's on electric only. Especially in cold Canuck winters.
03-10-18, 07:42 PM
#28
The -FXE (Atkinson) cycle engines used in hybrids only have VVT-i on the input valves, not on the exhaust valves. The Atkinson cycle engines do not need Dual VVT-i. Why use the more complex variable exhaust valve timing if it is not needed?
The Atkinson cycle is less powerful than the Otto cycle but it is more efficient (less fuel consumption).
The lower torque at low rpm of the Atkinson cycle is compensated for by the torque-heavy electric motor.
The best -- most efficient -- hybrid powertrains combine the internal combustion engine with an electric motor in such a way that the shortcomings of one are compensated for by the other. The low torque at low rpm of the ICE is compensated for by the electric motor which has a lot of torque at low rpm; and when the electric runs out of steam at high rpm, the ICE is at its most efficient and most powerful.
Most Toyota and Lexus hybrid vehicles operate in this fashion. Yes, the gasoline engines run on the less powerful -- but more efficient -- Atkinson cycle, but compensated for by the torque-heavy electric motor. These hybrid vehicles are tuned to maximize fuel economy.
The Atkinson cycle is less powerful than the Otto cycle but it is more efficient (less fuel consumption).
The lower torque at low rpm of the Atkinson cycle is compensated for by the torque-heavy electric motor.
The best -- most efficient -- hybrid powertrains combine the internal combustion engine with an electric motor in such a way that the shortcomings of one are compensated for by the other. The low torque at low rpm of the ICE is compensated for by the electric motor which has a lot of torque at low rpm; and when the electric runs out of steam at high rpm, the ICE is at its most efficient and most powerful.
Most Toyota and Lexus hybrid vehicles operate in this fashion. Yes, the gasoline engines run on the less powerful -- but more efficient -- Atkinson cycle, but compensated for by the torque-heavy electric motor. These hybrid vehicles are tuned to maximize fuel economy.
Sulu's ESh for eg. has a premium associated with it, at least $4K. How to recover that cost and in how many years? It's about what type of driving you do and now much maintenance you would like to have on a car. Diesels were really expensive to option on the Germans and you had to think about why you wanted to pay that price.
base price ICE vs base hybrid (USD)
ES $38,950
ESh $41,820
diff $2,870
GS $46,310
GSh $63,635
diff $17,325
NX $35,985
NXh $38,335
diff $2,350
RX $43,220
RXh $53,035
diff $9,815
LC $92,000
LCh $96,510
diff $4510
Just taking a stab here. Sounds like he's talking about the IS300h (220 total system hp) in Europe and the discontinued 2005-2012 diesel IS200d/IS220d with 150hp/170hp respectively.
03-10-18, 09:26 PM
#30
Lexus Fanatic
The Lexus RXh has both dual variable valve timing on both intake and exhaust. So does the regular RX 3.5. When you pay more for an RXh, you get more horses, more torque which gives you better vehicle performance. You also get much better fuel economy. Same thing with a GSh vs a GS350.
Now look at the ESh and I guess Avalon. You pay more money, and you get less power, less vehicle performance, less horses and less torque. The ESh is 5.8 litres per 100k in Canada, while the beaver RXh is 7.5 litres per 100k, I am sure you could get 6.5 litres per 100k if you put the 306net RXh system in the ES. Even if you got 7.5 litres per 100k you are getting Corolla fuel economy but 306 net horsepower. Now that is a premium worth paying for. You also get dual VVTi and the Atkinson cycle. (Tacoma comes with Atkinson on the 3.5, not sure why RX350 doesn’t)
Paying the premium for the LS or LC makes no sense. Neither does the ESh. Same with CT, I didn’t realize it at the time.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 03-11-18 at 06:44 AM.